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Yixing Clay Breakdown

by needaTEAcher » Jul 1st, '12, 12:07

I met with some really amazing masters and grandmasters in Malaysia recently, and asked a lot of questions. They explained a lot to me, and I want to share what they said. Please feel free to contradict, comment, or in any way open discourse on this. I just want to post this info because it was really helpful to me.

ZiNi-Purple Clay: Three main depths, shallow, middle, and deep. Purple/light brown Qing Su Ni, Clear Water Clay, is technically a type of Zini. This clay can be pure.

HongNi-Red Clay: Becoming less common, so often times Hong Qing Su Ni is sold as HongNi, but it is not quite so good. Also, repeated in the ZhuNi section, Modern ZhuNi is actually compressed HongNi, like a lab-created ZhuNi. This is the brownish-orange ZhuNi (still really, really good clay). These clays can be pure.

DuanNi-Yellow Clay: Last of the pure clays, but we didn't talk much about it. I know there are many varieties (Stone, Pear, Sesame, Golden, Yellow), so please jump in and comment!

HeiNi-Black: This is not a pure clay, but is a mix of purple clay and firing techniques, and sometimes chemicals (but not harmful).

LvNi-Green/Blue: Also not pure, but mixed. I was told a good way to see fake from real is that there should be dots of color variation. If it is all a solid color, it is probably fake. Like HeiNi, this one is mixed with the other clays, often (only?) DuanNi, but also with chemicals (not harmful ones).

ZhuNi-I forgot what Zhu stands for, help?: This has been the most enigmatic for me. I was told there are three basic ZhuNi clays (not counting each mountain as its own). Modern ZhuNi, as listed above, is the brownish one. Least of the three. Next is the standard, orange/golden ZhuNi that I think we all think of, which is extinct and is superb quality. Finally, I learned of a super rare clay called Da Hong Pao ZhuNi, which is much more red (but still orangish), and is almost impossible to find. This is the best of the ZhuNi clays, and most of the pots are very, very old. Also the most fragile (I only saw it because it was cracked from using boiling water straight away instead of warming it slowly). It was beyond beautiful. So Modern ZhuNi is really HongNi, but the other two are their own, pure category.

Whew. Thoughts? I know it is always more technical than a clear breakdown, and the the mountain and depth and master who mixed the clay makes a huge difference, as does the firing, but in the spirit of understanding I offer the above simplifications. Thanks for reading, and add some wisdom, y'all! :lol:

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by Poohblah » Jul 2nd, '12, 00:37

朱泥 zhūní - "red clay"

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by needaTEAcher » Jul 2nd, '12, 02:04

What is the difference between Zhu and Hong?

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by auhckw » Jul 2nd, '12, 03:04

Zhuni is a sub category of HonNi

Just like DiCaoQing is a sub category of ZiNi

or HuangJinDuan is a sub category of DuanNi

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by bagua7 » Jul 2nd, '12, 04:06

Zhu ni: cinnabar clay
Hong ni: red clay

Correct me if I am wrong. :mrgreen:

They are different even though the second one is sold under the first one's name.

Then we have modern zhu ni which is a clay that tries to imitate the former using hong ni as a base clay. No idea about what other clays are added to the mix.

Let's wait for chrl42 to further polish your entry post and add more detailed info to mine.

I got a question for him: what is the commanding price in today's market for a well-crafted old zhu ni pot? No master level, please, just for a piece belonging to the bottom of the food chain, either the Assistant Master Craftsman or the plain and simple Craftsman.

Cheers.

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by Poohblah » Jul 2nd, '12, 10:39

bagua7 wrote:Zhu ni: cinnabar clay
Hong ni: red clay
I doubt you would want cinnabar clay, unless you enjoy mercury poisoning. :wink:

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by needaTEAcher » Jul 2nd, '12, 14:13

So hong is red, zi is purple, etc., but does zhu translate as cinnibar?

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by Drax » Jul 2nd, '12, 14:35

Check out Babelcarp as an easy resource for all of your tea-related Chinese terms. 朱 is done as 'vermillion' but either way likely refers to the *color*, not necessarily the specific chemical composition that is cinnabar (which would include mercury sulfide).

I can't speak for Chinese, but Japanese cinnabar tends to have the symbol 丹 (red earth) in the mix as well (such as 丹朱). Would definitely need to get a native speaker for better clarification on that one...

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by bagua7 » Jul 3rd, '12, 01:10

Poohblah wrote:
bagua7 wrote:Zhu ni: cinnabar clay
Hong ni: red clay
I doubt you would want cinnabar clay, unless you enjoy mercury poisoning. :wink:
It's about the colour you thing... :mrgreen:
needaTEAcher wrote:So hong is red, zi is purple, etc., but does zhu translate as cinnibar?
朱砂 = cinnabar/bright red hue of cinnabar (pinyin: zhūshā). Clay that has a reddish brown colour with a very high iron content (this is what makes it so different from hong ni - red clay).

I wouldn't consider zhu ni a subcategory of hong ni at all, due to the lack of iron content in this last clay...correct me if I am wrong, lol.

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by Tead Off » Jul 3rd, '12, 04:16

bagua7 wrote:
Poohblah wrote:
bagua7 wrote:Zhu ni: cinnabar clay
Hong ni: red clay
I doubt you would want cinnabar clay, unless you enjoy mercury poisoning. :wink:
It's about the colour you thing... :mrgreen:
needaTEAcher wrote:So hong is red, zi is purple, etc., but does zhu translate as cinnibar?
朱砂 = cinnabar/bright red hue of cinnabar (pinyin: zhūshā). Clay that has a reddish brown colour with a very high iron content (this is what makes it so different from hong ni - red clay).

I wouldn't consider zhu ni a subcategory of hong ni at all, due to the lack of iron content in this last clay...correct me if I am wrong, lol.
Why do you think hong ni doesn't have iron content? How do you think it gets its color?

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by wyardley » Jul 3rd, '12, 06:43

Just like most languages, Chinese has different words for specific shades of a color (we have red, but also 'scarlet', 'vermillion', 'burgundy', etc. -- some of these words refer to a more specific shade, but most people would agree that they're all shades of red). I am not that literate in Chinese, but I think it's fair to say that 朱 is a subset of 红 (whether or not you consider zhuni a subset of hongni / hongtu is another question).

http://www.nciku.com/search/zh/detail/%E6%9C%B1/1319906

As others have said, zhu is usually interpreted as vermillion or 'cinnabar' (the color of cinnabar, not saying that zhuni *is* cinnabar). My understanding is that it should be a bit towards orange.

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by needaTEAcher » Jul 3rd, '12, 07:40

Well said. Also, as I was taught, "real" ZhuNi isn't a subset of HongNi, for example the very red Da Hong Pao ZhuNi or the more orange version I have seen simply called ZhuNi.

However, as it was explained to me, "Modern ZhuNi" (the more brownish one) can be classified under HongNi, because it is dense, compressed HongNi, made to act like/imitate old ZhuNi. Kind of like freshwater pearls that are farmed are real pearls, but aren't the same as saltwater pearls. Modern ZhuNi is real ZhuNi but it is also a subset of HongNi. Kapish? :?:

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by Poohblah » Jul 3rd, '12, 12:14

Obviously "zhuni" doesn't refer to cinnabar itself. But to translate it as "cinnabar clay" is a bit misleading, since "cinnabar" is not really used to describe color often; it's more strongly associated with the metal mercury and early Daoist alchemists. Point being that it makes more sense to translate "zhuni" as "red clay" or "vermillion clay" or "red-orange clay" or "bright red clay" or whatever.

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by needaTEAcher » Jul 3rd, '12, 13:25

I feel like the ZhuNi translation is good. Thanks y'all!

What about DuanNi? Can anyone chime in? I know that Sesame DuanNu has specs of ZiNi, HongNi, or some other mineral in it, but can anyone specify?

What about the DuanNi pots that are more yellow, or more golden, or darker, or have that textured, rough, stone-ish look?

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Re: Yixing Clay Breakdown

by needaTEAcher » Jul 3rd, '12, 13:26

Also, Drax, that babelcarp is beyond amazing. Can't thank you enough for the tool.

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