Lvni...A Quest

[needaTEAcher]

Hello again everyone! I have been on a quest all across Asia to find some Lvni. I have found a lot of interesting information, some of it conflicting, and I would love to have all you experts chime in.

First, what's with the "v" in lvni? It sounds like it should be spelled liuni, if anything. Any enlightening transliteration help?

Next, what's up with blue vs green? It was recently explained to me (by 3 different experts, who seems to agree on some things and disagree on others!) that the original lvni was green, and has been mined out. Any new pots are made from stored green lvni, and are very expensive. On the flip side, it was also explained to me that blue lvni is made by mixing different Zisha clays together with cobalt (my guess was some combination of zini and duanni with cobalt). 1 expert I spoke with categorized blue lvni as "fake" because it is mixed with "chemicals". Another categorized blue lvni as "Modern Lvni", mixed with "minerals, not chemicals" and said that it is not only real zisha, but perfectly safe to drink. When I asked this dude what clays are mixed in, he said that the people who make the clays guard the recipes, and that even the Masters who make the pots don't know what exactly goes into different clays.

Lvni Set Profile.jpg (27.12 KiB) Viewed 2219 times

Lvni Set Profile Lids.jpg (28.21 KiB) Viewed 2219 times

Lvni Set Chops.jpg (14.18 KiB) Viewed 2219 times

3rd, my two pots here are obviously the blue kind. Is this Mao Lvni? What exactly is Mao Lvni? Can anyone comment on the accuracy of the above-listed breakdown, or offer a different breakdown of thier own? I remember reading that it ment "Original Lvni" or something, but wouldn't that not be right, exactly?

As complicated as all this is, misinformation is abundant, and I would hate to have created a space for more misinformation. So, I hate to say this, but please don't post stuff you don't know for sure as if it is fact. Besides, teachat folks love to double check!

Thanks, as always, for all the help. Y'all rock!

[yanom]

First, what's with the "v" in lvni?

There are two sounds in Chinese that sound quite like the English "u". One sounds like the vowel in "do", the other sounds similar but with very rounded lips, which changes the sound. In the Mainland China standard way of using abc letters to represent sounds, the first of these uses a simple "u". The second is written either "v" or "ü" (or, sometimes (and depending on surrounding letters) just "u").

The "lv" or 绿 (means green) in "lvni" is the "u" that needs rounded lips.

I don't know how long "lv" has been used in Chinese to mean green: there's an older word which meant green and also meant blue (lots of languages don't distinguish between the two colours) ... depending on the age of the word "lv" this might or might not complicate an understanding of how "lvni" was used for pots long ago.

As of the real meat of your question: I have no idea!

[brandon]

Muo lu ni refers to the color of ink.

[needaTEAcher]

Thanks Yanom. That's super helpful. Chinese noises mess me up!

Brandon, what do you mean by ink? As in, ink injected into the clay or somehow applied after firing, or something else?

[bagua7]

Another categorized blue lvni as "Modern Lvni", mixed with "minerals, not chemicals" and said that it is not only real zisha, but perfectly safe to drink. When I asked this dude what clays are mixed in, he said that the people who make the clays guard the recipes, and that even the Masters who make the pots don't know what exactly goes into different clays.

chrl42 would be able to answer the first part without a hitch. I hope he visits this thread soon.

About the highlighted part: Pure gold! Can I be your friend?

[brandon]

墨[mò] - ink

To suggest a much deeper shade than lu.

[ImmortaliTEA]

Hello again everyone! I have been on a quest all across Asia to find some Lvni. I have found a lot of interesting information, some of it conflicting, and I would love to have all you experts chime in.

First, what's with the "v" in lvni? It sounds like it should be spelled liuni, if anything. Any enlightening transliteration help?

Next, what's up with blue vs green? It was recently explained to me (by 3 different experts, who seems to agree on some things and disagree on others!) that the original lvni was green, and has been mined out. Any new pots are made from stored green lvni, and are very expensive. On the flip side, it was also explained to me that blue lvni is made by mixing different Zisha clays together with cobalt (my guess was some combination of zini and duanni with cobalt). 1 expert I spoke with categorized blue lvni as "fake" because it is mixed with "chemicals". Another categorized blue lvni as "Modern Lvni", mixed with "minerals, not chemicals" and said that it is not only real zisha, but perfectly safe to drink. When I asked this dude what clays are mixed in, he said that the people who make the clays guard the recipes, and that even the Masters who make the pots don't know what exactly goes into different clays.

Lvni Set Profile.jpg

Lvni Set Profile Lids.jpg

Lvni Set Chops.jpg

3rd, my two pots here are obviously the blue kind. Is this Mao Lvni? What exactly is Mao Lvni? Can anyone comment on the accuracy of the above-listed breakdown, or offer a different breakdown of thier own? I remember reading that it ment "Original Lvni" or something, but wouldn't that not be right, exactly?

As complicated as all this is, misinformation is abundant, and I would hate to have created a space for more misinformation. So, I hate to say this, but please don't post stuff you don't know for sure as if it is fact. Besides, teachat folks love to double check!

Thanks, as always, for all the help. Y'all rock!

It is my opinion that the teapot on the left is much closer to the supposedly "real" Mou Lvni clay that I have seen on many teapots in the past. That doesn't mean the one on the right is guaranteed to be non-authentic (as it could have a coating of wax or something else giving it that shiny look), however, to me it looks like the one on the left has the well known white silica dots that are inseparable from almost all Lvni and Hei Ni pots I have seen, touched, and experimented with.

[needaTEAcher]

The shine is due to my crappy camera and flash.

Thanks for chiming in Immortal.

They both have the white dots, as well as other colored specks, though the one of the left has a lot more, not to mention a better color and hue. They were the same price, despite the size difference, so I assumed the one on the right was lower quality. The one of the left was sold as a Factory 1 pot from 1990, sticker and all, but when I had someone who knows a lot more than me look at the chop, he said it is either 92 or 94. Couldn't care less about those details!

[Maxwell2079]

Hi Needa,

I am really very far away from being an expert but I can share some information that a vendor has given me , since I was recently looking for a Lvni too!

I ask them if the pot they offered had some chemicals and explained me the following :
"This recipe is ones of the very few man-dyed color clay, which was created by the Yixing teapot factory. The base clay is usually Ben Shan Lv, mixed with "Cobaltous oxide / CoO" and "manganous oxide / MnO" to reach the color."

Here are the pictures the pots:
http://imageshack.us/g/9/47304695.jpg/

And in case you haven't read it yet here is some good info from Chrl42:
http://teadrunk.org/topic/47/basic-yixing-clay-101/

Take care.

[bagua7]

I got one of those JTS lu ni pots as well. Not very happy with the chemicals added, a real pity because it's a lovely pot. I hardly use it for that reason, dunno the pot doesn't feel right to me. I normally stick to purer clays, call me a purist if you like, just better Earth Qi for the spirit, which is the same thing anyhow.

[needaTEAcher]

Thanks Maxwell. Your pot looks a little silvery. Almost metallic. Does the color look like the photo, or is it more blueish? Seems a different color blue than the ones I have seen.

Also, thanks for the link. I have read that article several times!

Baggy, I find the smaller of the pots above really, really, smoothes out the flavor. The bigger one is ok; performs like a pretty standard zisha. Good qi. I think maybe it has to do with the level of purity?

I think the question is, minerals of chemicals?

[entropyembrace]

All clay is made of chemicals

All tea is made of chemicals

All water is made of chemicals (mostly one chemical)

Almost anything you can imagine is made of chemicals

[Maxwell2079]

Needa, I haven't bought the pot so I can't tell you how the color really looks like . It was too big for me. Since mainly I drink alone or with my girlfriend.

G. I am curious about pots with chemicals added, since you have bought a similar pot. Could you comment on the brewing results with it? I mean, it improves the tea in some way or the result is not good?

[ImmortaliTEA]

Thanks Maxwell. Your pot looks a little silvery. Almost metallic. Does the color look like the photo, or is it more blueish? Seems a different color blue than the ones I have seen.

Also, thanks for the link. I have read that article several times!

Baggy, I find the smaller of the pots above really, really, smoothes out the flavor. The bigger one is ok; performs like a pretty standard zisha. Good qi. I think maybe it has to do with the level of purity?

I think the question is, minerals of chemicals?

I have seen this exact teapot as well as a few others with the same shade of blue in person and you can rest assured that if any "Mou Lvni" clays are "real" this one certainly is and has a price tag to match it. I believe the shiny or metallic feature you are seeing is due to it being higher fired than the commonly seen Mou Lvni teapots. So basically, if you believe the Mou Lvni rounds flavors a little too much perhaps you would prefer a higher fired version of Mou Lvni such as this one in the picture. The one that I have is from The Mandarins Tea Room and I believe it is Med. Coal Fired in a Factory Kiln and to me it has the perfect balance of keeping aroma intact, rounding quite a bit but not too much perhaps almost identical to Zi Sha's rounding ability, as well as just constantly making a better cup of tea than any other type of clay I own besides the 1970's Cultural Revolutions Zi Sha which isn't exactly better than the Mou Lvni but just about up to par with it.

[needaTEAcher]

Well $#*^. Now I have another category of teapot I want to buy and try. This hobby is expensive!

The high-fire makes sense. I should have connected that. Thanks.

Entropy,wouldn't all minerals be chemicals then? So perhaps the question should be, natural chemicals (found as is without human intervention/with minimal modification to make it workable) or human constructed chemicals?

So then how do we know which chemicals are harmful and which are beneficial, other than trying and seeing how you feel (hopefully not dead!)? I am no chemist, and I don't expect my tea studies to take me too far in that direction (briefly flirting with chemical biology while learning about the leaves and especially fermentation taught me to just ask people who know more ).