Yixing mythical clays

[bagua7]

Let's see:

Da Hong Pao Ni
Ben Shan Lu Ni (historically known as li pi ni (pear skin clay or the dragon tendons)
Tian Qing Ni
Duan Ni

How authentic are (were as in some instances they no longer exist) these clays? Are they pure or just a formulation resulting from combining various clays, i.e. duan ni = ben shan lu ni + zi ni. Or is modern duan ni purely a combination of various clays with 'who knows what' as the "base clay."

Is clay mixing underrated? I think it is especially in the Chinese art of pottery. Is clay mixing bad? No if the clays used are pure and the amount of chemical dyes are avoided or minimised, preferably option A.

Also, I'd like to test old zhuni vs a newer zhuni and see whether the first performs better than the second one using quality tea and quality water; that is, identical parameters in both cases...objectively, not just because you own the old pot and proudly think that it performs better than a modern pot. Put your ego aside and let's be honest about it.

[chrl42]

Let's see:

Da Hong Pao Ni
Ben Shan Lu Ni (historically known as li pi ni (pear skin clay or the dragon tendons)
Tian Qing Ni
Duan Ni

Da Hong Pao - no such clay exists. It's how clay manufacturers or potters take pride in, comparable to 'monkey-picked' Oolong

Ben Shan Lv Ni - it's a clay known to be rarer than Zhuni, historically BSLN clay very rarely was used, during antique periods white-ish clay used was mostly Baini not Benshan, famous ROC clay was Duanni.

It started to use only widely with Factory-1, with opening of no.4 mine, but Benshan and Zhuni are very picky clays for firing, not suitable for mass-production, so finished products of Benshan often had 'blacking - Tuhei' from pots produced during 7~80s and Factory-1 didn't have Zhuni.

And mind you, ancient Li Pi Ni is not today's Benshan Lvni, Li Pi Ni comes from Dashuitan which was depleted long ago.

Tian Qing ni is mid-Qing dynasty clay..the examples are seen from some Shao Da-heng and Yang Peng-nian's pots.

Duanni implies a large context..there is a natural duanni, mixed duanni, low-quality Benshan...all are called as Duanni these days. The most famous Duanni came from Tuanshan which is depleted already.

Is clay mixing underrated? I think it is especially in the Chinese art of pottery. Is clay mixing bad? No if the clays used are pure and the amount of chemical dyes are avoided or minimised, preferably option A.

If a base clay is good, and a clay master understands the mechanism of mixing and experienced, then it's good mixed clay...if not, it's not good mixed clay there is a good natural clay and good mixed clay, but you cannot use bad base clays to make a good mixed clay

Also, I'd like to test old zhuni vs a newer zhuni and see whether the first performs better than the second one using quality tea and quality water; that is, identical parameters in both cases...objectively, not just because you own the old pot and proudly think that it performs better than a modern pot. Put your ego aside and let's be honest about it.

There are adventages old clays have..first for it's natural quality

second they hand-made the clays..

as for Dragon kiln vs modern kilns....might need opinions coming from professional potters

[steanze]

Duanni implies a large context..there is a natural duanni, mixed duanni, low-quality Benshan...all are called as Duanni these days. The most famous Duanni came from Tuanshan which is depleted already.

+1
Duanni is a quite general name that includes some different clays with different colors: yellow, brown, grey... Also, if I understand well, grey duanni (清段泥) is a bit different from qing hui ni （清灰泥）, qing hui ni is darker and should have a "shark skin" appearance. There is also grainy "sesame" duanni.

I heard about a distinction between duanni （段泥）, which contains zini and benshan lv ni, and tuanni （团泥） which contains also some hong ni...
http://www.360doc.com/content/11/0226/1 ... 7640.shtml

[chrl42]

I heard about a distinction between duanni （段泥）, which contains zini and benshan lv ni, and tuanni （团泥） which contains also some hong ni...
http://www.360doc.com/content/11/0226/1 ... 7640.shtml

From what I know, Duanni came from a term Tuanni which was a famous Duanni during the old days, Tuanni came from Tuanshan (Tuan mountain) which is located around Baoshan (where Jiangponi and others come),

a trait of Tuanni (Qing~ROC) was a mixture of Hongni particle which sure is trait from some ROC teapots, the period where Tuanni was most frequently used. But the old Tuanni source had long gone by the ROC,

And later generations just call similar clays as Duanni,

Because Yixing people shared the terms transmitted by oral, since many of them were illiterate, that's how Tuanni (團) became Duanni (段)...although I don't know how the 2 letters are pronounced in Yixing dialect. (Imagine Puerh terms )

[steanze]

Thanks for the great information!

[kyarazen]

well.. i thought i'll chime in from the newbie point of view whilst the experts will fill in on core details

from my research, there are many ways yixing clays are classified

1) by production area
examples like xiang shan nen ni, jiang po ni, hwang long shan pu ni, jiang xi zi sha, hong wei chun xiao mei yao zhuni, zhao zhuang zhuni and many more.

2) by the color after firing
hong, zi, qing, mo lv, hei,

3) by processing and grading
qing shui nen ni... shu pu ni...

4) by blend name
pin zi, zi ma duan, te pin, hei pin,

5) by the surface texture after firing (more seen in taiwan?)
i.e. shark skin texture, pear skin texture, 30mu, 60mu etc

6) by the Era
i.e. cultural revolution qing shui ni, 82-85 nian gao tu, ROC Fu Ji hong tu... Qing Zhuni..

despite the clay appearing to have mythical origins, it probably falls into one of these genres, and these genres easily can overlap.

on the same topic, if you visit one of the earliest publications on yixing zisha, i.e. ming dynasty's Yang Xian Ming Hu Xi, page 6, you will see "legend-like" or even "mythical" color namings. a brief translation of the passage on Xu You Quan :

The clays he used had colors of Hai Tang Red, Zhu Sha Purple, Ding Yao White, Cold Yellow Gold, Light Mo (ink), Chenxiang (agarwood?!?!), Shui Pi (Water green/blue),Liu Skin, Gui Yellow, Shiny Pear Skin, etc.

and if you look at another sentence from another passage covering the first mention of duan ni

Lao Ni, produced from Tuan Shan, after firing white sandy grains will appear, like pearl jade brightness, if you add some tian qing clay and shi huang clay, after firing you will get light orange deep old color.

Bai-Ni - white clay (chao shan origin) blahblahblahblah

and most intriguing/thought provoking of all... there's implication that the clay stratas are layered, sometimes some clays disappear/go extinct, and then re-appear again another time in another place, 矿脉时断时续，the author attributes it to the various mountain "gods" guarding the place.

[kyarazen]

with my recent fascination with hong-ni (not zhu), i was in a spate of intense discussion with a couple of taiwanese collectors on the subject

based on their records the following observation was made
1) from the CR era onwards, they no longer used clay with blended shi-huang ores due to the scarcity (shi-huang gives rise to zhuni), instead they used the red clay of chuan-bu, yixing which was called Xiao Hong Ni (small red clay)

2) from the early 80s huanglong shan yielded hong ni, first with '82-85's nian gao tu, then with 86-90s Da Hong ni (big red clay).

3) Da Hong Ni when high fired takes on a rich burgundy color, so people loosely called it "Da Hong Pao". The other perspective from another collector is that Da Hong Pao clay is iron oxide doped, in an attempt to match the iron levels of the early hong nis. therefore Da Hong Pao clay is not as mythical as it seems.

hong ni becomes even more sophisticated when one studies not the outside of the pot but the clay on the inside.. its a whole new world than just simply the external surface color.

clay mixing dates back to the ming dynasty, its not a bad thing if new colors was to be achieved, new clay properties was desired.

there is vast differences between old and new zhuni definitely. the old zhuni is water soluble shi-huang clay from zhao zhuang.. it must not be exposed to air for too long else it becomes oxidized and becomes "hong ni" instead. the new generation zhuni can easily be non-water soluble clay, finely ground by modern technology, non shi-huang origin. additionally, the old zhuni is fired for a very long duration in the dragon kiln, up to days.. modern firing by gas, electrical etc, is much shorter in duration, as such the clay structure will also be different.

blind testing is definitely something that can be done, its most transparent to what the pot/clay can do to the tea. the process can help discern the true masters from the students. but when one goes into using old zhuni, its not only the effect on the tea, but also the aesthetics of enjoying the pot design, shape, material.. just like a piece of old he tian jade..

there's mention amongst some collectors that unused hong/zhu ni pots are detrimental to tea when newly used for the first few times. when they become old and seasoned, the pot then settles into a more central and forgiving characteristic. so far it appears to be semi-true with a couple of hong ni pots but... the investigation and research continues!!

Let's see:

Da Hong Pao Ni
Ben Shan Lu Ni (historically known as li pi ni (pear skin clay or the dragon tendons)
Tian Qing Ni
Duan Ni

How authentic are (were as in some instances they no longer exist) these clays? Are they pure or just a formulation resulting from combining various clays, i.e. duan ni = ben shan lu ni + zi ni. Or is modern duan ni purely a combination of various clays with 'who knows what' as the "base clay."

Is clay mixing underrated? I think it is especially in the Chinese art of pottery. Is clay mixing bad? No if the clays used are pure and the amount of chemical dyes are avoided or minimised, preferably option A.

Also, I'd like to test old zhuni vs a newer zhuni and see whether the first performs better than the second one using quality tea and quality water; that is, identical parameters in both cases...objectively, not just because you own the old pot and proudly think that it performs better than a modern pot. Put your ego aside and let's be honest about it.

[achyle]

Oh man, I love this topic!

a close up of a Benshan Muo Luni from the 90's (supposedly, I'm no expert)
what do you guys think?
White pearl jade brightness?

benshan (1 of 1).jpg (24.09 KiB) Viewed 5491 times

[steanze]

Thanks kyarazen! In your study of hong-ni, did you happen to stumble upon 查林红泥 (chalin hong ni)? Do you have any information about it? I heard it is a specific type of xiao hong ni mined in the '50s but I don't know much more about it...

[steanze]

what do you guys think?

I don't know about muo lvni, but since we're asking questions about it... does this look like min guo muo lvni?

[Poseidon]

Oh man, I love this topic!

a close up of a Benshan Muo Luni from the 90's (supposedly, I'm no expert)
what do you guys think?
White pearl jade brightness?

benshan (1 of 1).jpg

beautiful clay achyle! Im thinking my next pot will be a green/blue clay!

[tingjunkie]

Don't forget about the mythical 麒麟尾楼 (Qílín wěi lóu) clay. Extremely rare.

[steanze]

Don't forget about the mythical 麒麟尾楼 (Qílín wěi lóu) clay. Extremely rare.

which needs to be fired at very high temperature to avoid undesirable effects on the tea...

[chrl42]

based on their records the following observation was made
1) from the CR era onwards, they no longer used clay with blended shi-huang ores due to the scarcity (shi-huang gives rise to zhuni), instead they used the red clay of chuan-bu, yixing which was called Xiao Hong Ni (small red clay)

Just for a discussion sake, there are still Shihuang being used, they are just not Zhaozhuang one, but Xiaomeiyao etc..

From my understanding, small batches of Chuanbu Hongni have been used during 7~80s (green sticker period), and filled the rest of Hongni products during later days (up to 97). Iron oxide was added, somewhat lacks in porosity to earlier Hongni.

2) from the early 80s huanglong shan yielded hong ni, first with '82-85's nian gao tu, then with 86-90s Da Hong ni (big red clay).

this one needs a debate,

First, Niangaotu the clay was invented during the CR, they invented it to test for making 'slip-cast' teapots, yet failed. Left clays were used to make into teapots during 82~85. Niangaotu was 'mixed' clay of Zini, Hongni etc then processed into quite smaller particle, Niangaotu has no porosity, but incredible in seasoning.


on a general agreement, Huanglongshan Hongni's characteristics are known to be 'texture as Zini and color as Hongni', this characteristic can be traced back to as early as Ming dynasty to Kangxi redwares, Daoguang~ROC Hongni and Factory-1 'Fen Tai' and 'Hong Zini' Shuipings.


Zhu Zei-wei wrote the details about the clay mining and locations in '宜兴紫砂矿料', looks like there were more than 3 mines in Zhaozhuang areas operated since the 50s, yet he didn't specify the Huanglongshan Hongni mine, according to his book, Huanglongshan Hongni comes from Baoshan (Qinglongshan area) but he didn't credit in which year they started to mine Baoshan clays.

It is VERY technical and difficult subject, I think no one can be 100% affirmed to say unless he/she was who did participate making clay in Factory-1. Even experts opinions differ a lot on this.

3) Da Hong Ni when high fired takes on a rich burgundy color, so people loosely called it "Da Hong Pao". The other perspective from another collector is that Da Hong Pao clay is iron oxide doped, in an attempt to match the iron levels of the early hong nis. therefore Da Hong Pao clay is not as mythical as it seems.

And you think these are the same clays as Qing dynasty DHP? Did they use iron oxide during mid-Qing ?

Give an example of Qing dynasty pot made of Da Hong Pao...

1.Han Qi-lou indicated Shao You-ting (no book around me, could be another Shao, too)'s pot as DHP, he said the effect had come from a very special location in the kiln, special air flow and firing gave the pot very pretty color..but the percentage of being so can be quite rare as it was a coincidental effect

2.ROC's famous Yu Guo-liang's DHP pots are reported to be quality-Shihuang had been mixed in.

peace.

[wert]

The names are used mainly to sell pots, you can't sell something without giving it a name. A name that is easy to remember, attractive and have some mystical magic is more effective.

Sometimes, people used the same names for different types of stuff and the different names for the same stuff.

This kind of discussions only serve to confuse the reader and spread such myths. For it to have some reference to reality, there should be good pictures, linking the names to actual goods.