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Questions on Zhuni

by AT333 » Jun 7th, '15, 01:57

Now that we have the honor of Dr Lu joining us, I like to post is few question on this clay, Zhuni. I am sure expert like kyarazen, chrl, tingjinkie and many others have much to share too.

Questions:

What is Zhuni clay?

Where was it mined specifically in Yixing,

What is the clay characteristic, in raw form, and how did the clay processed for making tea pot.

What is the limitation of this clay in making teapot.

Is there any differences in this clay in different eras and what it their different characteristics in different eras?

How do we identify this clay when looking at teapot. I am sure it is more than high pitch ringing sound. :mrgreen:

How do we tell if the clay/teapot is fired in dragon kiln or coal kiln.

Is this clay particularly good for any tea and what are those tea?

I will add in more questions and also open to the forum for the rest to add in any question. Please don't be restricted with the topic and my role as TS. As long as the topic is focus on Zhuni, I will be most grateful.

So, let's start the ball rolling Thank you! :mrgreen:

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Re: Questions on Zhuni

by tingjunkie » Jun 7th, '15, 06:06

AT333 wrote:Now that we have the honor of Dr Lu joining us, I like to post is few question on this clay, Zhuni. I am sure expert like kyarazen, chrl, tingjinkie and many others have much to share too.
How the heck did I make it on to that list? :lol:

Thanks for the vote of confidence though.

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Re: Questions on Zhuni

by tingjunkie » Jun 7th, '15, 06:31

I'll try to hit a few basics before the actual heavyweights step in for better and more in-depth answers...

What is Zhuni clay? A type of Yixing clay in the hong ni family characterized by very small particle size, requiring a lower firing temperature than other clays to be fired properly, and has lower porosity when properly fired.

Where was it mined specifically in Yixing? The original pre-1973-ish clay came from Zhao Zhuang mountain. Modern stuff comes from Xiao Mei Yao (near Huang Long Mountain) and Hu Fu.

What is the clay characteristic, in raw form, and how did the clay processed for making tea pot. Comes from a yellow ore. Processed by crushing rock ore in to powder, straining powder with a very fine sieve, then mixing with water and allowing to age.

What is the limitation of this clay in making teapot. High shrinkage rate, high breakage rate while firing, shows flaws in craftsmanship more easily (clay is easy to accidentally deform or mark-up), hard to make larger teapots without breaking in kiln. Once the teapot is made, you must pre-warm the teapot before adding boiling water, or risk breaking.

Is there any differences in this clay in different eras and what it their different characteristics in different eras? Yes, major differences. I'll let others answer.

How do we identify this clay when looking at teapot. I am sure it is more than high pitch ringing sound. In short, experience. Has to do with recognizing color and texture. Real zhuni tends to "glow" when handled by soaking up/reflecting oils from your skin.

How do we tell if the clay/teapot is fired in dragon kiln or coal kiln. Dragon kiln (any wood fired kiln) will often leave ash deposits on the outside of the pot. I'm sure there are other clues too.

Is this clay particularly good for any tea and what are those tea? Depends if we are talking original lao zhuni, or the many various modern versions. Generally speaking, zhuni has lower porosity and has a more subtle effect on tea, so I'd say likely better for very fragrant oolongs like gao shan, or any masterfully made tea which doesn't need much alteration. But ultimately the pot chooses the tea, not the clay type.

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Re: Questions on Zhuni

by Tead Off » Jun 7th, '15, 07:44

tingjunkie wrote: How do we tell if the clay/teapot is fired in dragon kiln or coal kiln. Dragon kiln (any wood fired kiln) will often leave ash deposits on the outside of the pot. I'm sure there are other clues too.
I would think this would be difficult to tell by one who is not very familiar with firing pots. Saggars, boxes made to shelter the items from floating ash, could be used to protect the pots while firing. Anyone who could identify with certainty the difference between the two would be hard to find, I think. Ash deposits on a teapot may be an obvious clue, but not decisive.

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Re: Questions on Zhuni

by earlyteapot » Jun 7th, '15, 12:21

Tead Off wrote: I would think this would be difficult to tell by one who is not very familiar with firing pots. Saggars, boxes made to shelter the items from floating ash, could be used to protect the pots while firing. Anyone who could identify with certainty the difference between the two would be hard to find, I think. Ash deposits on a teapot may be an obvious clue, but not decisive.
I agree with you. Honest to say, no one can identify these two without the other clues. Because firing is a complex process, the clay, the oxygen, the position in kiln and temperature will affect it's result. Observing the ash is wrong. Because the pots were put into a box, call "Xia bo" (匣缽) for protection when firing, the ash of the fire can never fell on it. What the ash we saw, actually is the miscellaneous material of the clay melt out of the pots during the fire. This is why we can find the ash both on the surface and inner of the pots. If the ash are from the fire, the inner of the pots should not have the ash.
Back to question, how can we tell the kiln ? The answer is we identify the period of pots first, then we knew what kiln it should be. Because there are some other easy and reliable methods to identify the period of pots, for example, the mold, the clay, the construction methods, the seal and the style.
The dragon kiln was no more used for teapots in Yi-Xing after 1960s. So except your pots was made before it, all of the teapots were fired by other kilns.

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Re: Questions on Zhuni

by pedant » Jun 7th, '15, 12:50

tingjunkie wrote: ...
What is the limitation of this clay in making teapot. ...Once the teapot is made, you must pre-warm the teapot before adding boiling water, or risk breaking.
...
wow, i didn't realize that there were clay pots that could be broken that way.

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Re: Questions on Zhuni

by kyarazen » Jun 7th, '15, 15:17

pedant wrote:
tingjunkie wrote: ...
What is the limitation of this clay in making teapot. ...Once the teapot is made, you must pre-warm the teapot before adding boiling water, or risk breaking.
...
wow, i didn't realize that there were clay pots that could be broken that way.
there are! especially those 60s-70s interior flat base type of pots.. even hong ni can be busted with the wrong handling.. have a rare 12cup early 60s that had its base busted >.< going to kintsugi it soon :D

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Re: Questions on Zhuni

by kyarazen » Jun 7th, '15, 15:54

i'm just replying based on my current research,dont take it to be the absolute truth as in research information always continue to update

Questions:

What is Zhuni clay?

zhuni clay is not simply fine ground clay. if you have seen the example of the "slipcast" yixing pots in '58 to '60, that is ultra ultra ultra fine hong ni, but does not have the zhuni texture, density, and surface characteristic.

in essence, proper real zhuni might actually occur as certain underground patches when abundant, in anoxic conditions, but nowadays, with its scarcity (with occasional rediscoveries), it appears that it is found as egg shape globs. the raw ore is yellow color, and the spoken difference between zhuni and hong ni from the exact same area is the fineness of the material, and the color, hongni takes on an ochre hue. it is said that raw zhuni if left to erode will turn into raw hong ni color.

i speculate the formation of zhuni to be a "precipitation", i.e. dissolved iron or iron compounds coming out of water, and that it is in a unique hydration state that gives it a certain color. this is why it is found as a eggie glob. there are also mention that raw zhuni can dissolve in water, whilst hong ni doesnt.

Where was it mined specifically in Yixing,
the earliest zhuni item if i'm not wrong is from end ming dynasty, and based on zhou gao qi's writings etc, zhuni is from zhaozhuang in yixing.

What is the clay characteristic, in raw form, and how did the clay processed for making tea pot.
the raw clay characteristic would probably have a very high content of a particular type of iron oxide in a certain hydration state that gives it that "yellow" color. the processing is complicated, some would wash the clay and allow it to become a suspension, allow the suspension to settle or the dissolved components to "dry out", to give an ultra fine paste for work. this is the "Historical" zhuni.

What is the limitation of this clay in making teapot.
zhuni is absolutely non-plastic, so a 100% zhuni pot is probably unlikely, it may be blended with a lower percentage of other good clays to give it plasticity. shrinkage is also a problem.

Is there any differences in this clay in different eras and what it their different characteristics in different eras?
yes there is! any zhuni collectors lament that modern zhuni pots are never at the level or quality of the type of zhuni seen in mid qing, late qing, ROC. that sort of texture, color, density, feel, has yet to be replicated in modern days.

How do we identify this clay when looking at teapot. I am sure it is more than high pitch ringing sound. :mrgreen:

actually it depends on how you want to define zhuni and the individual boundary for acceptance. it all boils down the percentage of zhuni content since zhuni 100% does not allow it to be fired into a stable object.

to me, zhuni is refinement, the feel is like good creamy nephrite jade in texture and density! if you drink from beakers often you will know how glass feels, and how pots that have been overfired to achieve sillica glassification would feel like, dead, dense, metallic.


How do we tell if the clay/teapot is fired in dragon kiln or coal kiln.
the only tell tale sign is if you chip or bust the pot :P since the dragonkiln is wood fired for a very long duration, like 2 weeks or more, the pots inside undergo cyclic oxidation and reduction. by looking at the broken edge of a pot one can deduce a little. but its still better to go by the "era" of the pot based on clay material, shape, seal and other factors. like Dr Lu has said, after the 60s it is no longer dragon kiln-ing.

and since pots are fired in a protective ceramic housing that shields the pots from flying stuffs, their surface is usually pretty clean. if you see black spots, these are "molten" iron spots, which is also pretty cool to note that certain rare iron oxides in the clay are more easily decomposed. these spots are more common in zini and qingshuini of the 70s.



Is this clay particularly good for any tea and what are those tea?









AT333 wrote:Now that we have the honor of Dr Lu joining us, I like to post is few question on this clay, Zhuni. I am sure expert like kyarazen, chrl, tingjinkie and many others have much to share too.

So, let's start the ball rolling Thank you! :mrgreen:
i should be the last to join the list of experts, since i dont think i have been collecting for a super long time :)

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Re: Questions on Zhuni

by chrl42 » Jun 8th, '15, 03:22

Tead Off wrote:
tingjunkie wrote: How do we tell if the clay/teapot is fired in dragon kiln or coal kiln. Dragon kiln (any wood fired kiln) will often leave ash deposits on the outside of the pot. I'm sure there are other clues too.
I would think this would be difficult to tell by one who is not very familiar with firing pots. Saggars, boxes made to shelter the items from floating ash, could be used to protect the pots while firing. Anyone who could identify with certainty the difference between the two would be hard to find, I think. Ash deposits on a teapot may be an obvious clue, but not decisive.
I think ash deposits are more found from private wood kilns, which then seldomly found from the dragon kiln.

Color-changed or bubbles are more obvious with the dragon kiln, IMHO.

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Re: Questions on Zhuni

by AT333 » Jun 8th, '15, 23:14

Thank you very much tingjunkie, kyarazen, chrl42, Dr Lu, Tead Off for sharing your knowledge.

Is Zhuni extinct now? I still hear a lot of new master old Zhuni clay pots now and then. Obviously anyone will be extremely cautious with such pot.

Can I ask if those small shipping pots before 1950 are pots using highest percentage of Zhuni clay with a little addition of other clay for stability. I notice those 1960 onwards are more reddish, perhaps added with hong ni. When did they start blending hong ni in?

Dr Lu, your book is a real inspiration and very well documented. It drives up the prices of those pots. Hardly seen those pots in the market after your book is out. :mrgreen:
A pity that not many here can read Chinese. Perhaps you should consider a English version. I am sure many will be looking forward to the English edition. Thank you for the great book.

Is it possible to outline all the molds and indicate which era they use those mold for making teapots? Also the physical features of different era pot. We can narrow down to shui ping pots for a start.

Thank you for all the response. Much appreciated. :mrgreen:

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Re: Questions on Zhuni

by kyarazen » Jun 9th, '15, 02:03

AT333 wrote: Is Zhuni extinct now? I still hear a lot of new master old Zhuni clay pots now and then. Obviously anyone will be extremely cautious with such pot.
my opinion, no, bits can be rediscovered here and there, but what that seemed to be extinct is the final product, i.e. so far have not seen any modern zhuni's fired and crafted to the level of ROC and earlier days. probably need to see more zhuni :)~
AT333 wrote:Can I ask if those small shipping pots before 1950 are pots using highest percentage of Zhuni clay with a little addition of other clay for stability. I notice those 1960 onwards are more reddish, perhaps added with hong ni. When did they start blending hong ni in?
i would think highest percentage zhuni could also be found in qing and ROC. small shuiping pots before factory days, i.e. 50s and earliers came in 2 flavours, one is hong ni, and the other rarer one is zhuni. if you look in Dr Lu's book, in the puffed lid section there are quite a few zhuni ones.
on the other hand, the hong ni from this era does have speckling of patches of "shi-huang", yellow bits here and there, sometimes quite abundant.

from the start of Factory 1 in '58, they never used zhuni at all, you will not be able to find a zhuni "zhong guo yixing seal" either. however the hong ni used in the early era, i.e. 60s and earlier, there are lots of small yellow grains in the hong ni if you see the inside of the pot, that is referred to as "shi-huang" grains, and the earlier the hongni/pot, the more the "shihuang" grain content. into the 70s these grains declined and disappeared.

AT333 wrote:Dr Lu, your book is a real inspiration and very well documented. It drives up the prices of those pots. Hardly seen those pots in the market after your book is out. :mrgreen:
A pity that not many here can read Chinese. Perhaps you should consider a English version. I am sure many will be looking forward to the English edition. Thank you for the great book.
you sound reallly really familiar :P i wonder if we've met before... :P

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Re: Questions on Zhuni

by AT333 » Jun 9th, '15, 23:32

kyarazen wrote:
you sound reallly really familiar :P i wonder if we've met before... :P

Thanks kyarazen! Really appreciate your contribution. I don't think I have met anyone who identify himself/herself as kyarazen so far. :mrgreen:

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Re: Questions on Zhuni

by AT333 » Jun 9th, '15, 23:37

Another question on Zhuni.

What is the shrinkage percentage after firing? Can the shrinkage be seen and identifiable in Zhuni as compared to other clay. What is the typical shrinkage pattern as compared to say Hongni? Lateral? patchy? grainy?

Is there any difference shrinkage pattern of different era Zhuni? And those fired in dragon kiln vs. coal kiln?

Thanks! :mrgreen:

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by bonescwa » Jun 10th, '15, 07:59

If you don't mind, what is exactly meant by "puffed lid?" I remember seeing that term on some other thread and seeing the pictures but nothing about the lids struck me as different at the time.

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Re:

by kyarazen » Jun 10th, '15, 10:51

bonescwa wrote:If you don't mind, what is exactly meant by "puffed lid?" I remember seeing that term on some other thread and seeing the pictures but nothing about the lids struck me as different at the time.

+/- 10 years apart on this pair

Image

left is puffed lid, right is regular lid.

Puff lid refers to 盔帽(kui mao) or Peng Gai 椪盖 彭盖 膨盖
where the lid is puffier and fuller. quite many of the 50s and earlier shuiping pots have this puffed lid shape

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