On Muo Lvni Clay (Yixing Subthread)

[tingjunkie]

Do not buy from that store - he is a rip of merchant and *all*, that means *every single one*, of his pots are fake or miserably low quality, and *never* the age advertised.

No, not every single one. I have two pots that came from 5000Friend that are quality pots. Not top shelf or collectors items, but certainly usable with decent authentic clay.

[theredbaron]

Do not buy from that store - he is a rip of merchant and *all*, that means *every single one*, of his pots are fake or miserably low quality, and *never* the age advertised.

No, not every single one. I have two pots that came from 5000Friend that are quality pots. Not top shelf or collectors items, but certainly usable with decent authentic clay.

Some of his pots may be Yixing clay, but all the pots i have seen were advertised as Qing dynasty, or ROC - which is fraudulent in itself. If one wants to sell new Yixing pots, without fake patina that is a potential health risk , then the seller http://www.ebay.com/usr/lukevecent?_trk ... 7675.l2559 does an honest business.
If one still wants to buy from 5000friends, then please. But i can only warn people not to do so, as there are much better alternatives on the web.

[tingjunkie]

I agree. Fraudulent claims abound, but there's a hidden gem from time to time, if you know what to look for. Definitely not a good place for rookies to shop though, CC.

As far as lukevecent on eBay, I also agree. In fact, I was the person who turned the forum on to his shop.

[bagua7]

Too dramatic post of yours. Everything is relative and IMPERMANENT.

Bttw, TJ also happened to refer another Yixing pots vendor which happens to sell quality modern stuff (well spotted brother!).

Lukevecent is the name. I got 4 pots all up from him and they are lovely!

Note: oops! I missed the last page, so TJ already replied to the upset user...never mind.

[CheekyChipmunk]

I think we can all agree that the Yixing market is saturated with exaggerations, fraudulent claims and a great deal of mistrust. However, as Bagua suggests, dealing in absolutes makes it even harder to glean the truths that are key to ending up with workable pots (in my humble opinion). I think that one of the greatest weapons we have against those who seek to take advantage of us is to simply share our experiences without judgement acknowledging that each has their own perspective, which is then able to be individually assessed in terms of merit.

In this light, in my experience, I would not purchase from lukevecent (again). One of the first pots I acquired was from his eBay store, claiming to be made from a type of clay named 'mantianxing' (I have since formed the opinion that this is a made up type of clay). This was at a time before I knew a lot about chemical doping of pots etc. Even so, I noticed that using this pot would cause a roughness in my throat and that afterwards it would smell of artificial chemicals rather than natural minerals. As a result I only ever used it once, maybe twice and I now only look at it as an 'education' pot (never to be used as a brewing vessel). Knowing what I know now, I feel confident in saying that out of all of my pots, this pot is the most heavily laced with artificial chemicals.

In contrast, I ordered 5 items from 5000friend in my most recent order (including the shuiping and larger lvni put appearing in this thread). While i have no doubt that the claims associated with the pots are at best exaggerated, I am generally more happy with the quality of the products themselves. In addition to the pots already described here, I purchased a use Zhuni pot, some used cups and an unused hongni pot.

The Zhuni pot I am still forming an opinion of, in any case it seems that Zhuni is the most imitated and faked material of all yixing, and I have no idea if I have ever in fact held genuine Zhuni. This being said, the pot in question appears to be of decent material (plenty of contraction visible including a crack from the firing), well fired (it resonates like a bell, smelled very neutral after being cleaned and the clay has a nice lustre rather than being dull) and of a believable shade of vermillion. I tested it on a da hong pao I know decently well, and compared to a red clay pot from YS i usually use, it seemed to highlight the mineral and grassy notes of the tea as opposed to the sugary sweetness that builds from using the YS pot. Whether it is more suited to greener oolongs I am yet to test/decide.

The used cups are to my eyes, of good quality. The workmanship is top notch, with many fine details well executed and a general artistic realism resulting from the form given to the cups. As for the quality of the clay, I do not know to be honest as I have never owned any yellow shaded clay before ( I hesitate greatly in suggesting they are made of benshan lvni as I appreciate the scarcity/price of such items, so the most obvious label might be a sort of duanni?). I recently posted them on the official/different Yixing thread for any who are interested:

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=11539&start=2790#p292523

As for the hongni pot, again it has all the hallmarks of a well functioning pot (decent clay well fired with bell sound, lustrous clay, 'rocky' smell when heated etc etc) but I am yet to test it out. This pot at least arrived in good condition without any grime/mineral deposits etc (as it was advertised as unused).

The final point I would raise at this time is that I am beginning to feel there are many parallels between the Yixing market and the violin/instrument market. That is to say, in the instrument trade, you will always find someone who has something good to say about a violin dealer, just as you will always be able to find someone who says something bad about that same dealer. you can only ever go with your own instincts at some stage, and hope that over time you can refine them to a point where you can be confident/comfortable with your purchases.

Thanks to you all for your input!

CC

[theredbaron]

The used cups are to my eyes, of good quality. The workmanship is top notch, with many fine details well executed and a general artistic realism resulting from the form given to the cups. As for the quality of the clay, I do not know to be honest as I have never owned any yellow shaded clay before ( I hesitate greatly in suggesting they are made of benshan lvni as I appreciate the scarcity/price of such items, so the most obvious label might be a sort of duanni?). I recently posted them on the official/different Yixing thread for any who are interested:

I have seen the thread. And i am sorry, but these cups are cheap tourist stuff i have seen countless times in China and other SEA shops.
I don't want to bring you down here, just help you. To start buying pots, when you are not in a tea country in Asia, and can get hands on tutoring, is very difficult. There are however a few places that sell trustworthy pots on the web, which are what they claim to be. I pointed them out to you. 5000Friends is *not* one of them.
For the money you spent there, you could have easily gotten one or two somewhat older Factory 1 pots from essenceoftea, for example - where you know that the pots come from reputable sources and people known and respected in the tea world.

[tingjunkie]

Bagua, thanks for the defense, but I didn't think TRB was upset or out of line. Just stating his opinion (which I happen to mostly agree with).

CC, it seems you are paying a whole lot of tuition in a short amount of time! The ebay vendor lukevecent does sell mostly fair pots at a fair price from all I can tell. But, like nearly every vendor selling modern pots for a low price, there will be some junk that sneaks in. Quite frankly, there is a different attitude among quite a few Chinese vendors in the tea world which amounts to the belief that if people are uninformed enough to buy crap, it's their fault. Some vendors feel it's not their responsibility to educate, but rather to offer a range of quality for sale, and let the market decide. Having some experience under your belt will help you tell the difference between what's good and what's not. For example, those "mantianxing" pots he sells look pretty awful. Searching this forum for some threads on hei ni would have revealed that the VAST majority of it is chemically doped "eraser" clay that ruins tea, and the real hei ni was only from the early 80's or before. That info is here to be found, and could have saved you some hard-earned cash.

Unless you are wealthy and have money to burn, please try to get your experience from talking to people, researching threads here, and handling pots in real life that you didn't cough up money for. I would second TRB's suggestion to grab a pot from Essence of Tea. He definitely sells authentic stuff at close to fair market value, and as far as Western vendors, he's definitely one of the best currently. (Oh, how I wish I had grabbed more from Jing back around 2008-2010. Alas!)

I'd also caution anyone to not to fall in to thinking they know more than they really do when it comes to Yixing. I've been borderline obsessed with Yixing for about 9 years, and I've had some great generous teachers, and even I still feel like I'm in elementary school. Better to be humble and inquisitive, rather than getting ahead of one's self.

[theredbaron]

I'd also caution anyone to not to fall in to thinking they know more than they really do when it comes to Yixing. I've been borderline obsessed with Yixing for about 9 years, and I've had some great generous teachers, and even I still feel like I'm in elementary school. Better to be humble and inquisitive, rather than getting ahead of one's self.

Absolutely!

I do have some very nice pots - mostly luck of buying a looong time ago when pots were much cheaper and much less faked, and/or pots from highly reputable sources in the Asian tea world. But that does not mean that i am anywhere close to being an expert or even what could be called knowledgeable, far from it.
I am primarily a tea drinker, and want the best possible vessel for my tea. To be a collector, i am afraid that i simply lack the knowledge, and the necessary money.

If i can help pointing someone who starts to avoid the pitfalls and to a place where they can get authentic pots that give a good brew and are worth what they cost, i am glad.

[CheekyChipmunk]

I don't want to bring you down here, just help you. To start buying pots, when you are not in a tea country in Asia, and can get hands on tutoring, is very difficult.

Yes it is indeed very difficult and it is why I have been trying to post a lot, for good or bad, so that I can start to learn. I appreciate that you are not trying to put me down and I thank you for taking the time to be honest and up front.

[CheekyChipmunk]

Bagua, thanks for the defense, but I didn't think TRB was upset or out of line. Just stating his opinion (which I happen to mostly agree with).

CC, it seems you are paying a whole lot of tuition in a short amount of time! For example, those "mantianxing" pots he sells look pretty awful. Searching this forum for some threads on hei ni would have revealed that the VAST majority of it is chemically doped "eraser" clay that ruins tea, and the real hei ni was only from the early 80's or before. That info is here to be found, and could have saved you some hard-earned cash.

Unless you are wealthy and have money to burn, please try to get your experience from talking to people, researching threads here, and handling pots in real life that you didn't cough up money for. I would second TRB's suggestion to grab a pot from Essence of Tea.

I'd also caution anyone to not to fall in to thinking they know more than they really do when it comes to Yixing. I've been borderline obsessed with Yixing for about 9 years, and I've had some great generous teachers, and even I still feel like I'm in elementary school. Better to be humble and inquisitive, rather than getting ahead of one's self.

Yes I have been getting quite the pricey private tuition when it comes to Yixing Unfortunately I have little access to any sort of Yixing or even meeting people that do where I live and have not travelled much in recent times to parts of Asia where more examples are found. I got the lukevecent pot before I had found this forum and yeah I have sort of given up on the idea of finding heini. I have thought seriously about getting an EoT pot, but most of the ones that have piqued my interest have been snapped up before I can get to them. I hope I don't come across sounding that I think I know a lot as I am well aware that I know next to nothing. I am very interested in Yixing and I like the idea of the art form, however all the stuff that comes with it makes it hard to get too much into it (unless you are wealthy as you have pointed out). I have enough pots for my needs (and a couple more), so for now I will attempt to keep learning and watch from afar. I am glad that I have tried to engage you and a few others as I've probably learned the most from doing so, so again I thank you and others for your input

[theredbaron]

I don't want to bring you down here, just help you. To start buying pots, when you are not in a tea country in Asia, and can get hands on tutoring, is very difficult.

Yes it is indeed very difficult and it is why I have been trying to post a lot, for good or bad, so that I can start to learn. I appreciate that you are not trying to put me down and I thank you for taking the time to be honest and up front.

Thanks for your understanding.

One advice i have, reading buying posts: I would not care so much about different clays, especially more esoteric or rare clays. I would care more about authenticity and if possible, age.
You will be perfectly served, to start off, with, lets say one Hong Ni pot for semi-fermented teas, and one Zi Ni for aged Pu Erh's. When i began 25 or 26 years ago i only had one pot, and it worked, and i enjoyed my tea tremendously, and i am still at it.
Both EoT and Chawangshop have regularly some factory pots for sale, from the late 80's/early 90's. They are authentic, have good clay, and brew good tea, and do not cost an arm and a leg. Just be patient and don't get frustrated.

[bagua7]

For example, those "mantianxing" pots he sells look pretty awful.

(Oh, how I wish I had grabbed more from Jing back around 2008-2010. Alas!)

1. Maybe it's a hit and miss thing. I remember when you first recommended this vendor 3 years ago or so, there was actually a potter who purchased a "mantianxing" pot from "lukevecent" and he was very pleased with it. Have you purchased one recently and realised it's bad stuff?

Anyway I remember TIM mentioning a while back in a discussion with another user called "needateacher" who was pretty keen on acquiring a Hei Ni pot and he managed to buy a couple in the Yixing region, well TIM wasn't impressed about those pots and he also said literally: "stop chasing dragons." Basically a clay that's almost impossible to find unless is a Factory or Qing pot.

2. Jing Tea Shop (http://jingteashop.com/cat-yixing-teapot-by-jing.cfm). Yeap their pot quality has gone down a bit (maybe more than a bit). Pity they use to stock pretty impressive material in the past. I got several pots and they are very nice and purchased at a very reasonable price.

Lukevecent: jiang po ni, qing shui ni, zhi ni and modern zhuni (xiao meyao mine). These are the clays used in the pots I got and they are all legit.

3. Tea Masters (http://www.tea-masters.com/en/18-yixing-teapots). Don't owe any. Legit? Probably but I can't really judge by looking from
a computer screen.

Cheers!

[bagua7]

I am very interested in Yixing and I like the idea of the art form, however all the stuff that comes with it makes it hard to get too much into it (unless you are wealthy as you have pointed out). I have enough pots for my needs (and a couple more), so for now I will attempt to keep learning and watch from afar.

If you happen to change your mind and want to buy an older, more priced or a Factory 1 pot, you can always open a thread-request and surely some of the Asian resident teachatters will have no trouble procuring you one. The are all based in Singapore and HK and one of them travels quite often to Taipei, one of Yixing capitals.

Good luck!

[tingjunkie]

2. Jing Tea Shop (http://jingteashop.com/cat-yixing-teapot-by-jing.cfm). Yeap their pot quality has gone down a bit (maybe more than a bit). Pity they use to stock pretty impressive material in the past. I got several pots and they are very nice and purchased at a very reasonable price.

I think their quality has stayed the same, but their prices have nearly doubled, and their selection has been decimated. That's the Yixing market in the last 8 years though- less good stuff out there for a good price.

It might be a good thing they did away with their Yixing archive section... it just made me lust after the missed opportunities.

[bagua7]

+ 1 I'm still regretting it today. Back then I had the opportunity of buying some of those awesome pots but all I cared for is the "penny pinching" mode. I only wanted to spend little money and be lucky enough to find a good pot. Lesson learnt for sure!

Missed some very cool aged Pin Zi Ni and Factory pots. Damn!

Too late now all those pots are long gone