Help picking a shui ping for yancha

[Beaumont82]

Hi Teachat, new here (though a long time lurker, I've learned more here than anywhere, so thank you) and I could use some advice.

I have a friend who's offered to sell me a yixing or two to help start my collection. To begin with I'm especially interested in finding a yixing to suit yancha, especially the darker stuff, since it's my favourite tea at the moment, and one I've heard can benefit from a well-chosen pot. Of course each tea drinkers' mileage will vary (in so many ways) but some general pointers or personal impressions would be great to hear.

My friend owns a lot of mostly late 80s/early 90s Factory 1 and 2 pots, nothing especially collectible, but they're well looked-after and probably good from a functional standpoint. It looks like my options will be all shui pings, he has a kind of a job-lot from this era: some a muddy dark brown (dark zini of some kind, I think he said Factory 2), some closer to black and kind of gritty in texture (definitely Factory 2), and some made from purplish red clay (early 90s Factory 1 hong-ni according to him).

They're all small, between 60 and 85 ml. So I wanted to ask for any thoughts you could offer about which type of clay (broadly speaking) you might pick for yancha from those above, and which size you'd prefer, between 60-ish or 80-ish ml. I usually drink alone (I'm so alone ).

Thanks for your help.

[William]

Hi Teachat, new here (though a long time lurker, I've learned more here than anywhere, so thank you) and I could use some advice.

I have a friend who's offered to sell me a yixing or two to help start my collection. To begin with I'm especially interested in finding a yixing to suit yancha, especially the darker stuff, since it's my favourite tea at the moment, and one I've heard can benefit from a well-chosen pot. Of course each tea drinkers' mileage will vary (in so many ways) but some general pointers or personal impressions would be great to hear.

My friend owns a lot of mostly late 80s/early 90s Factory 1 and 2 pots, nothing especially collectible, but they're well looked-after and probably good from a functional standpoint. It looks like my options will be all shui pings, he has a kind of a job-lot from this era: some a muddy dark brown (dark zini of some kind, I think he said Factory 2), some closer to black and kind of gritty in texture (definitely Factory 2), and some made from purplish red clay (early 90s Factory 1 hong-ni according to him).

They're all small, between 60 and 85 ml. So I wanted to ask for any thoughts you could offer about which type of clay (broadly speaking) you might pick for yancha from those above, and which size you'd prefer, between 60-ish or 80-ish ml. I usually drink alone (I'm so alone ).

Thanks for your help.

Personally, with Yancha I would use only F1 SP from the 60s or 70s (the volume essentially depends from you habits and preferences, though I think those 50 ml / 60 ml rock with rock teas ).
Using more porous clays and you would loose a lot, in my opinion!

[Beaumont82]

Hi Teachat, new here (though a long time lurker, I've learned more here than anywhere, so thank you) and I could use some advice.

I have a friend who's offered to sell me a yixing or two to help start my collection. To begin with I'm especially interested in finding a yixing to suit yancha, especially the darker stuff, since it's my favourite tea at the moment, and one I've heard can benefit from a well-chosen pot. Of course each tea drinkers' mileage will vary (in so many ways) but some general pointers or personal impressions would be great to hear.

My friend owns a lot of mostly late 80s/early 90s Factory 1 and 2 pots, nothing especially collectible, but they're well looked-after and probably good from a functional standpoint. It looks like my options will be all shui pings, he has a kind of a job-lot from this era: some a muddy dark brown (dark zini of some kind, I think he said Factory 2), some closer to black and kind of gritty in texture (definitely Factory 2), and some made from purplish red clay (early 90s Factory 1 hong-ni according to him).

They're all small, between 60 and 85 ml. So I wanted to ask for any thoughts you could offer about which type of clay (broadly speaking) you might pick for yancha from those above, and which size you'd prefer, between 60-ish or 80-ish ml. I usually drink alone (I'm so alone ).

Thanks for your help.

Personally, with Yancha I would use only F1 SP from the 60s or 70s (the volume essentially depends from you habits and preferences, though I think those 50 ml / 60 ml rock with rock teas ).
Using more porous clays and you would loose a lot, in my opinion!

Thanks William,

Would that I could afford a 60s hong ni, but I think my friends late 80s/early 90s F1 pots are going to be my best bet for now. Not the most illustrious era in the history of yixing exactly but they are more affordable, and he's being generous with the price.

Thanks for the advice and I've heard others say hong ni is best for bringing out the delicate flavour and aroma as well. Anyone here prefer more porous clays? And definitely still love to hear about size preferences. I've heard a packed 60ml pot is great for rock tea, but I'm nervous of such a small size.

[William]

Hi Teachat, new here (though a long time lurker, I've learned more here than anywhere, so thank you) and I could use some advice.

I have a friend who's offered to sell me a yixing or two to help start my collection. To begin with I'm especially interested in finding a yixing to suit yancha, especially the darker stuff, since it's my favourite tea at the moment, and one I've heard can benefit from a well-chosen pot. Of course each tea drinkers' mileage will vary (in so many ways) but some general pointers or personal impressions would be great to hear.

My friend owns a lot of mostly late 80s/early 90s Factory 1 and 2 pots, nothing especially collectible, but they're well looked-after and probably good from a functional standpoint. It looks like my options will be all shui pings, he has a kind of a job-lot from this era: some a muddy dark brown (dark zini of some kind, I think he said Factory 2), some closer to black and kind of gritty in texture (definitely Factory 2), and some made from purplish red clay (early 90s Factory 1 hong-ni according to him).

They're all small, between 60 and 85 ml. So I wanted to ask for any thoughts you could offer about which type of clay (broadly speaking) you might pick for yancha from those above, and which size you'd prefer, between 60-ish or 80-ish ml. I usually drink alone (I'm so alone ).

Thanks for your help.

Personally, with Yancha I would use only F1 SP from the 60s or 70s (the volume essentially depends from you habits and preferences, though I think those 50 ml / 60 ml rock with rock teas ).
Using more porous clays and you would loose a lot, in my opinion!

Thanks William,

Would that I could afford a 60s hong ni, but I think my friends late 80s/early 90s F1 pots are going to be my best bet for now. Not the most illustrious era in the history of yixing exactly but they are more affordable, and he's being generous with the price.

Thanks for the advice and I've heard others say hong ni is best for bringing out the delicate flavour and aroma as well. Anyone here prefer more porous clays? And definitely still love to hear about size preferences. I've heard a packed 60ml pot is great for rock tea, but I'm nervous of such a small size.

Beaumont82,

I don't know the price you are going to pay for those late 80s / early 90s F1 teapots, but in order to give you a concrete example, I can easily find here in Japan 70s SP (generally 50/60 ml) for 250/350 USD (the price essentially depends on the teapots conditions, i.e. unused/used, perfect/damaged). So, if you are going to spend more than a hundred bucks, just keep saving and buy a decent teapot in future. Quality over quantity! Always!

With regards to the size, years ago I was extremely skeptical of using such small teapots (50 ml / 60 ml). In order to verify by myself what was so special about them, I bought for that purpose a 50 ml F1 SP; long story short, since then I only use such small teapots. I must say that a packed teapot of that size and made of that kind of clay, especially if used with enduring teas, such as Yancha, Dancong, Gaoshan etc., it really brings out flavours and aromatics not otherwise obtainable. To give you a concrete example, only with such small teapots, stuffed with quality Yancha, I can really taste the rock flavour I truly love so much.

I hope this post to be somewhat helpful!

[tingjunkie]

Sorry William, but I find the idea that 80's-90's factory pots wouldn't be good enough for high fire yancha to be quite silly.

Photos would help us a lot here Beaumont, but in general...

- If you will mostly be brewing for yourself, 60ml is a better size. Good yancha is expensive, and to brew it best (IMHO) you need to stuff the pot. 60ml is still good for 2 people too.

- High fire yancha likes a lot of heat, so thicker walls are better than thin.

- A wide lid opening is better to accommodate the long twisted leaves.

- Regardless of clay type, if you are drinking really good yancha with a masterful roast, I'd recommend a high fired pot to preserve the higher notes of the tea. If you're drinking less than high grade yancha, I'd recommend a medium firing level to smooth out the roast and mouthfeel.

- I'd avoid the black clay. Never had much luck with it for any tea myself.

Since this is a friend, see if you can set up a tea session with him to test the pots! Brew up several rounds of yancha in a gaiwan, and transfer some tea from the faircup to each preheated pot. Let the tea sit for a full minute in each, and then sample them from identical cups. See which pot performs better. Pay attention to upfront flavor, mouthfeel, and aftertaste. [Pro Tip: After the tea has been in each pot, smell the empty pot and inside of lid. The pot that gives off a nice, clear, fragrant aroma should be a winner. Any pots that eat all the aroma or have a muted/muddled aroma are not a great fit.]

[William]

Sorry William, but I find the idea that 80's-90's factory pots wouldn't be good enough for high fire yancha to be quite silly.

Thank you for expressing your opinion, tingjunkie!
I think we have different opinions with regards to this thread's main subject. My personal opinion comes from the fact that I used (and therefore owned) a bunch of mid-late 80s / early 90s teapots in the past, mainly F1. I always found all of them to be too much porous, definitely too much, all the time, always ruining teas that don't need that kind of porosity, e.g. Yancha.

If you will mostly be brewing for yourself, 60ml is a better size. Good yancha is expensive, and to brew it best (IMHO) you need to stuff the pot. 60ml is still good for 2 people too.

I completely agree!

High fire yancha likes a lot of heat, so thicker walls are better than thin.

I personally do not agree. Teas that require initial short brews with boiling water (e.g. Yancha) or teas that still need extremely hot water but with longer brews (e.g. Gaoshan) in my opinion benefit greatly from thin or normal walled teapots (or any other vessel used). Thick walls tend to literally cook the leaves inside the teapot between brews, because even if we have poured out the brew (and therefore no water remains inside the teapot), the internal temperature, due to the thick walls, still remain too much high. This can be easily noted with Gaoshan, when the initial buttery/creamy flavors after one or two brews quickly transformed into an unpleasant vegetal flavor (the result of the thick walls that maintaining the heat too much high, literally cooked the leaves inside the teapot, when not in use); but still happens also with the more resistant and enduring Yancha, albeit it's much less evident.

[Tead Off]

Sorry William, but I find the idea that 80's-90's factory pots wouldn't be good enough for high fire yancha to be quite silly.

thank you for expressing your opinion, tingjunkie!
I think we have different opinions with regards to this thread's main subject. My personal opinion comes from the fact that I used (and therefore owned) a bunch of mid-late 80s / early 90s teapots in the past, mainly F1. I always found all of them to be too much porous, definitely too much, all the time, always ruining teas that don't need that kind of porosity, e.g. Yancha.

It's extremely hard to generalize about pots made in different periods. Not only does the clay change, but the techniques of clay preparation before its ready to be used, and the firing temp and time, will differ from kiln to kiln. There are perhaps millions of Yixing from the 80's/90's. The idea that all of them are too porous doesn't make sense from my experience. There are definite differences between pots and the fun is to find ones that suit your taste. To write off those millions of pots because of the handful that you tried and didn't like is a bit of a weak argument, don't you think? Some potters are better than others, too. Many of the masters that broke off from factory production still produced outstanding teapots. Trying buying one of those if you could afford to and if you could find one. However, we don't have to go in that direction to find a good 80's/90's pot.

OTOH, I'd bet a lot of the factory 1 production from CR period were not particularly well made or even fired evenly every time. IMO, consider yourself lucky to find any pot from post war to present that fulfills your ideal of 'perfect'. But, if you are only looking for old clay and think that it is the difference maker, then pre-80's is the way to go because they did use pure stuff for the most part. Just my 2 cents.

High fire yancha likes a lot of heat, so thicker walls are better than thin.

I personally do not agree. Teas that require initial short brews with boiling water (e.g. Yancha) or teas that still need extremely hot water but with longer brews (e.g. Gaoshan) in my opinion benefit greatly from thin or normal walled teapots (or any other vessel used). Thick walls tend to literally cook the leaves inside the teapot between brews, because even if we have poured out the brew (and therefore no water remains inside the teapot), the internal temperature, due to the thick walls, still remain too much high. This can be easily noted with Gaoshan, when the initial buttery/creamy flavors after one or two brews quickly transformed into an unpleasant vegetal flavor (the result of the thick walls that maintaining the heat too much high, literally cooked the leaves inside the teapot, when not in use); but still happens also with the more resistant and enduring Yancha, albeit it's much less evident.

I also think that it is debatable that thicker walls are better for high fired yancha. I have both types of pots and usually prefer thin to medium walled pots. Then the choice between Zisha or red clay comes into question. That is another area of contention which can boil down to properly fired or not. And, of course, subjective taste.

[.m.]

High fire yancha likes a lot of heat, so thicker walls are better than thin.

Thicker walls absorb more heat. On the subsequent infusions when you pour into a pot that is not already hot, this heat absorption will make the temperature drop. Whether this is desirable or not depends on the tea, but if you want more heat, then I think thin walls are better.

I have a 90s F1 hongni 60ml shuiping from EoT: thin walls, and a good craftsmanship for a factory pot. I think it is a very good pot to start with if you can get it for a fair price. You can still get an early 70s pot one day if you'll have the chance. You'll never have a problem to sell F1 pot for a right price, should you ever desire to.

[tingjunkie]

High fire yancha likes a lot of heat, so thicker walls are better than thin.

Thicker walls absorb more heat. On the subsequent infusions when you pour into a pot that is not already hot, this heat absorption will make the temperature drop.

Very easily controlled by showering the pot in boiling water on later infusions. That's the fun/challenging thing about gongfu... many tricks and skills to get to your goal.

[tingjunkie]

Thick walls tend to literally cook the leaves inside the teapot between brews, because even if we have poured out the brew (and therefore no water remains inside the teapot), the internal temperature, due to the thick walls, still remain too much high. This can be easily noted with Gaoshan, when the initial buttery/creamy flavors after one or two brews quickly transformed into an unpleasant vegetal flavor (the result of the thick walls that maintaining the heat too much high, literally cooked the leaves inside the teapot, when not in use); but still happens also with the more resistant and enduring Yancha, albeit it's much less evident.

Again, lots of tricks and skills to adjust for variables. Could always leave the lid off in between infusions. I agree with you about greener gao shan, but high fired yancha is a different world away. If we're talking about a traditional heavy roast, I've never experienced the leaves getting "cooked" or vegetal from brewing. All subjective of course.

[William]

It's extremely hard to generalize about pots made in different periods. Not only does the clay change, but the techniques of clay preparation before its ready to be used, and the firing temp and time, will differ from kiln to kiln. There are perhaps millions of Yixing from the 80's/90's. The idea that all of them are too porous doesn't make sense from my experience. There are definite differences between pots and the fun is to find ones that suit your taste. To write off those millions of pots because of the handful that you tried and didn't like is a bit of a weak argument, don't you think? Some potters are better than others, too. Many of the masters that broke off from factory production still produced outstanding teapots. Trying buying one of those if you could afford to and if you could find one. However, we don't have to go in that direction to find a good 80's/90's pot.

Thank you for your post, Tead Off.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my past posts, my fault.
When I said " I always found (mid-late 80s / early 90s) teapots to be too much porous", I was in fact referring only to factory teapots, made when they were operating, especially those made in F1 and F2. I never made any reference to Yixing teapots made from privately owned kilns (of any age), for the simple reason that I have no experience with them.

I think you are exaggerating a little bit with the number of factory Yixing clays available and used at the time. For example, F1, from the opening years up until the early 80s (this is IMO the golden period for quality clays) used probably no more than 30/50 different Yixing clays (if someone has numbers from trusted source, please share), maybe even less.

Sure, they changed over time, especially when a certain typology of clay finished completely and was replaced by a new one, e.g. Hongni from the 70s replaced the very same Hongni from the 60s because depleted completely.

OTOH, I'd bet a lot of the factory 1 production from CR period were not particularly well made or even fired evenly every time. IMO, consider yourself lucky to find any pot from post war to present that fulfills your ideal of 'perfect'. But, if you are only looking for old clay and think that it is the difference maker, then pre-80's is the way to go because they did use pure stuff for the most part. Just my 2 cents.

I must say I never saw a bad fired factory teapots made from the 70s onwards, while I do find sometimes not so well fired factory teapots from the 60s; but even in this case, if you have a good eye and the teapot in the hands, is really really easy to tell if the teapot has been fired well or not. Different matter for ROC and earlier teapots, it's somewhat tricky to find well fired teapots; easier with Hongni and Zhuni ones, almost impossible according to my experience for Zini and similar ones.

[William]

Thick walls tend to literally cook the leaves inside the teapot between brews, because even if we have poured out the brew (and therefore no water remains inside the teapot), the internal temperature, due to the thick walls, still remain too much high. This can be easily noted with Gaoshan, when the initial buttery/creamy flavors after one or two brews quickly transformed into an unpleasant vegetal flavor (the result of the thick walls that maintaining the heat too much high, literally cooked the leaves inside the teapot, when not in use); but still happens also with the more resistant and enduring Yancha, albeit it's much less evident.

Again, lots of tricks and skills to adjust for variables. Could always leave the lid off in between infusions. I agree with you about greener gao shan, but high fired yancha is a different world away. If we're talking about a traditional heavy roast, I've never experienced the leaves getting "cooked" or vegetal from brewing. All subjective of course.

Yes, the vegetal flavor was referred to Gaoshan when the leaves are damaged because of the heat inside the teapot, not referred to Yancha; sorry for the misunderstanding!

I agree about the lid trick, since I discovered it a couple of years ago, I always leave it off between infusions.

I think the term high fired can have so many different meanings we need to be more specific. I consider high fired ones, those where the roast note is not that obvious, or if it is, it develop and transform quickly and easily once stored inside a tea caddy for a couple of weeks/months. For example the high fired Yancha from essenceoftea in my opinion perfectly fit this category.

If instead, with high fired, you refer to those where the roast flavor is really obvious and doesn't disappear or transform into something else easily after a bit of storage (weeks/months), I must say I generally don't like this kind, so can't talk or discuss about it. I think that, with Yancha of this category, a slightly more porous clay than Zhuni or factory Hongni ones, could be a good idea.

I think we are discussing of such a subjective theme, that personal preferences really play a fundamental role here.

[tingjunkie]

Absolutely! In this conversation, I mean "high fired" or "heavy roast" to mean pronounced charcoal/dark chocolate/caramel notes in the first infusions, but not overfired to where the tea is burnt and ruined.

[MmBuddha]

Interesting to hear how opinions differ, but it seems like smaller pots are preferred for yancha. How small would you say is too small?

[Beaumont82]

Thank you for the advice everyone, even where there's disagreement it's very instructive. Despite some concern about leaf size I think I'll err on the small side—being able to pack the pot (or certainly head in that direction) would seem desirable from my experience with smaller gaiwans, and good yancha is no small investment.

I spoke to my friend today about the sizes, and he mentioned that he has some which he thinks are smaller than 60ml. This left me wondering: when it comes to, for example, Factory 1 shui pings, were these made in standardised sizes? In other words, were there classic factory shui ping sizes which have remained consistent over the years? I've seen so many variations listed online—70ml, 80ml, 85ml etc. I've often wondered if these weren't essentially pots of the same size, the difference accounted for by varying approches to measuring the capacity.

If there are classic factory sizes, for shui pings or more broadly, I'd love to know what they are in ML. Also if my friend does have some 50ml shui pings, how would you say these would fare for brewing yancha? Thanks again.