banko/tokoname vs yixing

[clareandromeda]

Has anyone noticed a difference? According to Hojo "It was found that the clay in Tokoname area was very similar to the one produced in Yi Xing area in terms of mineral compositions."

[clareandromeda]

Looking at artitic nippon, some of the "tokoname" teapots seem to be made out of red clay... but all the banko seem to be made out of purple, is this across the board?

[olivierco]

I think you can only experience by yourself such differences because too many factors (psychological or not) are involved.

For instance if a certain clay is said to modify the quality of the water, why not just change the water used to brew your tea?

Moreover there are many different clays (and different quality for each type) and
most information given by sellers will always say that the clay from the teapot they sell is adequate or one of the best quality and that it enhances the water or the taste of the tea.

[clareandromeda]

Ok upon further research I have found that it a teapot is referred to as "shidei" is purple. Shudei refers to brick red clay.

This actually kind of answers my original question. Yixing/Banko and Tokoname refer to regions where pottery is made. Then there are specific clays that are made. Each clay has different effects on tea.
Purple clay enhances the flavor and taste is very much enhanced, yet the aroma is eliminated.
Red clay enhances flavor, yet maintains aroma. The enhancement of flavor using the red clay is not as powerful as that of purple clay
Green clay is best for display only.

I have noticed that Artistic Nippon does not always provide what kind of clay is used for a pot although one can usually tell. I wonder why they dont always include this info?

[MarshalN]

No no..... shudei does not have anything to do with clay colour or composition. Shudei is the name for items that are made for calligraphy -- it's used for adding water to the inkstone, etc. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with what clay's being used.

As olivier said, there are far too many factors involved in this, and I can tell you right away that wherever you copied that blurb about "purple does this, red does that" is just hogwash.

[clareandromeda]

hmmm...looking at descriptions of items on artistic nippon I thought thats what shudei and shidei reffered to. for instance:
http://www.artisticnippon.com/product/t ... rchid.html the description of the item is this
Orchid teapot by Shoryu

A lovely kokudei teapot, accented with traces of the original shudei (brick red clay) and hand-painted with graceful orchids.


http://www.artisticnippon.com/product/t ... tachi.html
Banko shidei (purple) Tobikanna teapot by Tachi Masaki. A shallow teapot..


even the glossary states this:
http://www.artisticnippon.com/glossary.htm
"SHUDEI - a brick colored clay rich in ferric oxide, used in the production of
Tokoname ware etc."

Shidei is not listed.

Artistic Nippon apparently is misleading...

[clareandromeda]

As olivier said, there are far too many factors involved in this, and I can tell you right away that wherever you copied that blurb about "purple does this, red does that" is just hogwash.

I got that from the HOJO site
http://hojotea.com/categ_e/teapote.htm
1. Purple clay
Using a purple clay tea ware, the flavor and taste is very much enhanced, yet the aroma is eliminated. Because of this character, purple clay is suitable for the tea which we do not require too much aroma. For example, green tea, yellow tea, puerh ripe tea and flower tea such as chrysanthemum. You may be surprised that purple clay also performs very well with coffee, wine and even whisky. ...
2. Red Clay
It enhances flavor, yet maintains aroma. The enhancement of flavor using the red clay is not as powerful as that of purple clay. The flavor intensity differs depending on the quality of clay. For example, using artificially mixed red clay, the flavor is very weak, although aroma is good. Good red clay improves flavor a lot and aroma is still well-maintained. ...
3. Green Clay
Green clay is a very strange clay. The primary mineral inside green clay may be copper. It makes the aroma very strong, yet it completely eliminates flavor. I find the taste quite flat. This clay is only suitable for displaying purposes

[pb2q]

re: the Sado pots that hojo sells: http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... ado#115772

Searches should yield more results.

[MarshalN]

Shidei looks like a typo for "shudei" in that context. When he does the (purple) (red) thing he's really referring to the Tokoname/Banko difference.

[clareandromeda]

re: the Sado pots that hojo sells: http://www.teachat.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... ado#115772

Searches should yield more results.

thanks!

ok so this is what I have come up with: Banko, Tokoname and Yixing regions in which pottery is made (sort of like a brand). Pottery made in that region is named as such, and the clay can vary within those catagories?

[Tead Off]

Almost every question you have asked is answered on Hojo's site. Here is an exerpt concerning color of clay:

Purple clay could be light red, beige, yellow or purple before baking.

Crude red clay could be in black, yellow, purple or red in color.

Basically there is no difference between red clay and purple clay, except its iron content.
If clay contains 6-10% of iron, we call it purple clay, while at around 20% we call it red clay.
If you mix about 30% of natural red clay into yellow or white clay, it becomes artificial purple clay.
# Red clay (high iron content) appears red when it is baked with oxygen.
# Red clay appears black when it is baked without oxygen.
# Red clay can also appears in purple when it is baked in neutral fire.


# Purple clay (less iron content) appears orange to light red when it is baked with oxygen.
# Purple clay appears blue when it is baked without oxygen. When fire is stopped, oxygen enters into the oven and partially oxidizes the surface of clay. That's why blue + red (oxidation) becomes purple.



When iron is baked with oxygen, it oxidizes to become Fe3+ (Magnetite). On the other hand, iron becomes Fe2+ (Hematite) when it is baked with less oxygen or without it entirely. With less oxygen, fire generates carbon monoxide. This carbon monoxide will draw oxygen away from the iron.

Because of the different number of electron with iron Fe2+ and Fe3+, the effect of clay on the taste of water can vary greatly. Each kind of clay usually has 2 different effects, depending on whether “oxidized baking” or “reduced baking” was applied. Hence purple clay is made by reduced baking and red clay, by oxidized baking.

[clareandromeda]

I'm not inquiring about types of clay and I have read Hojo's site completely. I even quoted earlier from the same page that you quoted for me. What I was inquiring about is labels such as "Banko", "Tokoname" and "Yixing" and what they specifically meant. This is the 2nd thread in which people have been quick to jump on and tell me that my questions has been answered elsewhere when that is not the case.

[MarshalN]

Let's put it this way

Yixing and Tokoname are place names, and they basically denote a certain style of pottery with a certain kind of clay. Banko is a little different, but for our purposes here it's similar.

They are not like brands. Within each category there are certain characteristics that are shared. The clay will always vary -- in fact, the clay will vary from pot to pot, even if made by the same potter. There are a lot of factors that go into the making of a pot and the raw material is just one of many.

[Chip]

I'm not inquiring about types of clay and I have read Hojo's site completely. I even quoted earlier from the same page that you quoted for me. What I was inquiring about is labels such as "Banko", "Tokoname" and "Yixing" and what they specifically meant. This is the 2nd thread in which people have been quick to jump on and tell me that my questions has been answered elsewhere what that is not the case.

Members can get a bit intense on some subjects, sorry for your rough ride! This is a somewhat contraversial topic based on past observations. But of course since you are newer to the forum, you did not know you were stepping into the "kiln."

I am perfectly happy with my Tokoname kyusu-s I have. I do not own a Banko, so I don't know what I might be missing. Also, not all Banko are created equally, figure on paying a minimum of $60 for a Banko made by a craftsman with "good clay."

Tokoname are not as absorbing as Yixing, so they do not season as readily. My first one is around 10 years old, and after 7 years of very heavy use (it was my only one basically) I felt tea was a bit sweeter brewed in this kyusu, but that kyusu is now history as is the case with many clay objects that are used heavily.

[clareandromeda]

Banko is a little different, but for our purposes here it's similar.

This is what I am asking, why is Banko different? Why do you say "for our purposes here", are you aware of my purpose?

Thanks Chip, Your answer was the kind of answer I hoped to receive when I broached the subject.