Hagi, presented for your disapproval

[Chip]

Something is rotten in Hagi ...

Recently, I purchased several Hagi items from a newer ebay seller. I found the seller to be less than forthcomming, and in fact deceitful on several issues.

The number one issue that I present to you today, the wood boxes are virtual fakes, forgeries ... IMHO. Worse yet, the ink can still be smudged easily as my fingers can attest. This sounds like some old movie cliche with counterfeit money being passed with wet ink.

This ink was smudged all over the boxes, the tie strings (which I found to be a little out of place for these items). The kiln stamp even smudged easily on the so called "carpet" (a piece of cut nylon, not what we would expect) also bears the stamp which also smudges.

It is like a little kid got a hold of a charcoal art set and made a mess.

We are talking about artsan works, there is simply no way Seigan would do this to his own works.

There are just too many things out of place compared to all our excellent and perfect experiences with such sellers as Mago, A.N, Zencha ... things do not ring true and I feel a little like a sucker.

The pieces themselves, I am 99% certain they are the real deal, I would say 100% if not for other "things" being out of whack.. But the boxes which are meant to authenticate the work are a crime. I will share photos of pieces and the boxes ...

The same ink was used for two different kilns/artisans, which simply adds to my conviction.

THIS WORK WITH
1. WOODEN BOX (MADE OF WOOD : HANDWRITING CALLYGRAPHY ON IT ) * CALLYGRAPYED BOX IS VALUED AS CERTIFICATE OF THE WORK : DON'T THROW IT AWAY
2. A TEABOWL CARPET WITH A SPECIAL SEAL ON IT (PROTECTION CLOTH FROM FUNGICIDE)
3. GREETING SHEET

I am basically burning the bridge on this one, as I was hopeful of a long term relationship with lots of Hagi aquisitions, I even considered buying a bunch more and then firing away ... but I feel that would be hypocritical.

I do not care to continue to do business with this seller, and feel it is important to warn my fellow TCers and anyone else reading this. As much as I love Hagi, lines have to be maintained and sellers have to be called into account lest ebay becomes a den of thieves.

I have begun the process of first contacting the seller, blah blah blah. I will keep you posted, and photos to come.

So, be aware and beware! The "CERTIFICATE OF THE WORK" is definitely not the real deal!!!

[Chip]

Before strings were untied, carefully! The smudging is even worse once the ties were removed. Smudges, smears everywhere. If I touch anywhere there is stamp or print, it gets on my fingers. My camera skills actually make the boxes look better than they are IRL.

I will take additional photos sans the ties.



Here a smudge, there a smudge, everywhere a smudge smudge ...


Seigan's Kiln is usually stamped in red???


This one is not Seigan, an artisan I had not seen before. The cup is quite interesting, the box is appalling.

[Victoria]

I bought 4 pieces of Hagi from this seller in sometime in June. When I first opened the package and I saw the boxes I felt something was up. I have quite a large collection of Hagi and many pieces of Seigan. And I have never seen boxes like this. It struck me immediately that something was off. They were all brand new boxes with ties and so uniform. The yunomi and guinomi pieces I have purchased in the past never had tie boxes. So I thought that was strange. And then also, as Chip said, the ink did smear when touched. Also something I have never experienced. I wrote to another member at that time with my suspicions and a warning about the boxes.

I do feel that the merchandise is genuine, so no question there. I am not as upset for a couple of reasons - first of all, I don't display the boxes, so that is not a factor for me. While I do agree that it is IMPLIED that they are artisan boxes, it is not directly stated as such. And also the prices were not really reflective of including a signed artisan box. So although I was expecting the box to be genuine, I was not too upset or surprised that it was not. But, I can understand that others would be.

So I will continue to buy from this seller. I think that if you value the piece with the box as being a whole object then you will be unhappy. If you are only buying for the piece itself, then you will be fine. The seller's box is protective and allowed me to ship via SAL with less worries.
I guess the whole point here is: caveat emptor.

[Chip]

I would like to add that I am not in the habit of panning a seller or vendor. In 4+ years, I have been critical of 4 vendors on the forum. I try to focus on positives. BUT, there are times ... such as now.

I don't think I can convey the shock factor of opening the outer box to find 5 bastardized, wooden boxes ... I was upset beyond words.

Certainly one could say it is just a wood box. However a wood box is not just a wood box in Japan. Often the box is seemingly as important as the contents, often doubling values of teawares contained within. I woud say it is more of a symbol of the added care an artisan has taken ito create this piece, and the box certifies its care in making, thus adding value.

I guess I should add, I have had an in depth conversation with a another seller who I trust about sellers recreating signed/stamped boxes in order to falsely inflate values and/or increase sales ... this seller however would never consider doing this. This seller was quick to point out that he sells only teaware sold in boxes from artisan, stamped and signed by the artisan.

Make no mistake about it, the signed boxes seemingly add value to the pieces, as pieces sold in these authentically signed/stamped wood boxes often double the value or more of similar pieces sans the special box.

Not that I intend to sell, but it adds value, and this seller would gladly have allowed the auctions to escalate to whatever level. It is my opinion that there was an attempt to inflate the values just as my source has informed me.

The seller in question here makes a point of stating that the box is "VALUED AS CERTIFICATE OF THE WORK" ... how can this be when the seller in question is seemingly printing them up in his basement with ink that does not even set.

The artisan him/herself should certify its authenticity by stamping and signing the box, not a seller. The artisan was cut out of the loop and the added potential profit. Would the honorable Japanese artisan approve of such an attempt? Would any Japanese artisan condone these actions, the condition of the boxes that housed his works?

Can I also go to my basement and print up some wood boxes to certify the authenticity? Make a false stamp of Seigan's kiln, print a forged box?

Does Mago, does A.N, does Zencha ...

I guess we need translations of what is written on the boxes, so I hope we can get some of our in house experts to translate, please.

[JBaymore]

Chip,

I see plenty of Japanese pots on Ebay that are fakes or pieces with boxes that are not the originals. It is not all that uncommon. The jerks are slick. If you do not "know" Japanese ceramics........ it is easy to get screwed. EBay does a terrible job of authenticating and policing such stuff. Caveat Emptor, for sure.

As far as the boxes you have....... read what is SAID... not what you THINK or assume is being said. Read the literal, not the implied. In the limited quotes you shared, you'll notice that nowhere does it say that these boxes are signed by the artist of these pots. It just mentions the true fact that in Japan such a box is the documentation that authenticates A piece of claywork. Legally not an untruth. My guess is that careful writing is VERY deliberate.

Read the descriptions on EBay like a lawyer reading a contract.

Sorry you got taken. I am positive that you are not alone......... I see such garbage selling all the time.

best,

.............john

[JBaymore]

Parsing this .............

THIS WORK WITH
1. WOODEN BOX (MADE OF WOOD : HANDWRITING CALLYGRAPHY ON IT )

You recieve a wooden box. There is handwriting in what could be described as caligraphy on it. So these statements are true and do not violate Ebay' legal stuff as fraud.

* CALLYGRAPYED BOX IS VALUED AS CERTIFICATE OF THE WORK : DON'T THROW IT AWAY

In Japan a box with writing is a "certificate" of the work. That too is true. And the statement "don't throw it away" is simply a command statement of opinion. Again....dodging legalities.

2. A TEABOWL CARPET WITH A SPECIAL SEAL ON IT (PROTECTION CLOTH FROM FUNGICIDE)

There apparently was a "carpet" with a special seal on it. The statrement does not say WHAT the seal is. Again....... true... but of course very misleading. But still not fraud.

3. GREETING SHEET

I am guessng there was some paper in there . Nothing is stated about what the "greeting sheet" actually says or from whom it originated.


All of this stuff is a "professional level" rip off. Complain to EBay.... but the guy will just pop up again under a new username soon if they even do anything.

best,

............john

[Chip]

The good news is that the pieces are satisfactory.

Thanks for lending your translation skills. I will post sans ribbons maybe tomorrow.

Have you ever seen smearing/smudging like this? I mean literally, all I have to do is touch it, and it is on my fingers. Not to mention it is all over the box. I would have been better off w/o the boxes and saved on shipping.

What is your opinion of the addition of kiln stamps that were obviously done at the same time since they to smear/smudge?

[JBaymore]

The good news is that the pieces are satisfactory.

Chip,

If you already have purchased work directly from the artist (sounds like you have), take som photos of the pieces and get HIM to authenticate them.

If the boxes are faked and the language is so carefully drawn up......... it is really VERY possible that the pieces are NOT done by the stated artist.

Or run them by an expert wwho KNOWS that artist's work and can easily identify closely done fakes.

best,

...........john

[Chip]

I may just do that, I have access to one of the two artisan.

The pieces are somewhat different in style, but extremely close in certain details. I would be quite surprised if they were not by the artisan, but depending on how things roll along ... I could eventually take more direct measures.

First step is contacting the seller ... which I have done, no response yet, but I was pretty direct. The seller has not been adding new items by either artisan.

This is a case of buying from a pretty new seller that was not yet widely known (such as on TC) so the auctions were a breeze, one bid and done. So the pieces were all had at opening bid. I figured get some while the getting is good and cheap.

[Buzz Fledderjohn]

Those ribbons alone are a dead giveaway. I've never seen Seigan use anything so cheap looking.

Doesn't Hidesan over at Mago deal with Seigan's kiln directly? Maybe you could contact him about it.

[Marco]

May I add the question what is on my tongue?
WHY should there be original pieces in fake boxes?

I think there can be one or two reasons for something like this but my feeling tells me that it is likely that you have got a well done plagiarism.

Feeling sorry for that Chip!

[JBaymore]

The world of "fakes" in Japanese and Chinese ceramics is well known. For example, take one of the most famous cases:

The Einin Tsubo
http://toku-art.seesaa.net/article/139809165.html

I have a good friend from another non-asiatic country whom is a major well known international ceramic artist. (Name witheld deliberately.) He/she has told me that early in her/his career (this person is now in the 70s) as part of his/her early education they went to China to study in a well respected program. In that program amongst other skills she/he was taught was to make dead on copies of Sung Dynasty pieces. Learned to duplicate them to the Nth degree, and then how to age them to make them look genuine and "dug up". And it was no secret to anyone there that these pieces were then being sold as the real deal. It was "institutionalized" at the highest levels of this famous academic institution. She/he said that he/she developed some amazing skills during that period.

At the ripe age of 61, I have carefully (and even maybe what you'd call "academically") studied the work of Hamada Shoji all my life. Been in Mashiko many times, my work was acquired for a public collection there, visited with the Hamada family, have many friends there, etc. Blah, blah, blah.

I'd have to say that given a bit of time I likely would be able to create a nice tenmoku and kaki glazed piece that has red and green overglaze enamels in the classic "sugarcane" pattern that would completely fool the more casual observer. This is particulary true because I have a wood fired noborigama kiln, I have some Mashiko clay and a supply of the rather special Mashiko Kaki stone. I also have been using overglaze enamels for years (from the Hamada influence in fact). I have sonnections in Japan to get a nice older Palonia wood box. A bit of time working on brushwork for the box..... and bingo. A nice $9000.00 tokkuri for the bargain starting price of only $1500.00 on Ebay.

Better yet... spend a buch of time on the precise wording of the listing to make sure that what people THINK is says ....is not what it actually says. (Keep me out of jail.)

Firmly stated for the record here : I WOULD NOT DO THIS!!!!!!!!!

Now picture someone in Japan with ready access to the specific materials and having grown up in the world of Japanese ceramics. Given some skills in clay working...... fakes are not all that hard to produce. Bring in the "online" issues of not being able to handle the pieces and having limited discussions about the piece and access to the documentation..... a dash of "I can't speak or read the language" for most peiople...... and you have a formula for "not getting what you think you are".

I'd say that the best insurance when looking at work like this is to deal through a knowledgable and reputable dealer. You are going to pay a lot more.... but you will be getting what you think you are getting.

That being said.... if you like the piece and feel that the price you pay is OK for the object without any associated "pedigree".... and you are not looking to any investment value in the object.......... then all this does not matter all that much.

best,

.................john

[JBaymore]

Chip,

On one of this other auction listings the seller states that:

"HE IS ALSO OUR GOOD FRIEND. EVERYTIME WE VISIT HIS PLACE, WE DRINK BEER, SAKE, CHOCYU AND WINE TOGETHER, TALKING ABOUT POTTERY AND CHANOYU FOR A LONG TIME. HE IS REALLY GENIUS, WE BELIEBVE."

If that is the case, then the seller should have NO problem having Seigan-san contact you (since YOU already have a relationship) and have him verify directly that in fact those are his pieces and those are his boxes.

My guess is that you will be calling a bluff here.

The listings are all filled with grandiose information that is not directly germane to the pieces being offered. Helps to inflate the percieved value of the work, and make the viewer create assumptions in their mind that are not actually stated.

Or.... you can yourself forward that claim of friendship to Seigan-san and ask him if this is true?

The seller is apparently a potter himself. He does some diverse work from the look at his website. Maybe these are actually his work? Don't know. EDIT: His wording on the pages fooled me..... no maybe hs is NOT a potter himself. Confusing listings.

It currently smells like last week's fish wrapper.

best,

.................john

[Chip]

So far the seller has not responded to my message ... not sure how long I will give him to respond. I am not a spontaneous person, I tend to think and ponder before acting. But once I decide ... then it is full speed ahead.

Thanks for your comments and information!

[Tead Off]

As a long time antiquities dealer, copies are something I have to deal with on an ongoing basis. I have made some very expensive mistakes in my career as every other art dealer I know of has too.

I have found that the more skilled the copier is, they will make higher quality and higher priced objects. Seems to me, a potter who has the skills to fool Chip with $30-$40 cups or what not is not going to waste their time doing this but focus on much more costly items. If they have the skills to fake a Seigan guinomi, they can get the same price by using their own name, I would imagine. Plus, Chip said he thought the work was good.

I could be wrong but it's an awful lot of work to do all of this for very little reward plus ruining a seller's reputation with also the threat of criminal action. Doesn't make sense to this brain.