Preheating

[JRS22]

I'm struggling with brewing the organic shincha that I purchased, the Warashina Supreme and the Otu-Yutaka. Since I bought them from O-cha and stored them properly (I have most of each package safely tucked away in double wrapped splendor in the freezer) I assume the problem is either my brewing technique or my expectations for Shincha.

Some brewing suggestions include preheating the kyusu, but what does that actually mean? If it makes a difference, the kyusu I'm using is my adorable little unglazed Gyokko (5.4 oz to the brim) from Artistic Nippon.

[Chip]

I'm struggling with brewing the organic shincha that I purchased, the Warashina Supreme and the Otu-Yutaka. Since I bought them from O-cha and stored them properly (I have most of each package safely tucked away in double wrapped splendor in the freezer) I assume the problem is either my brewing technique or my expectations for Shincha.

Some brewing suggestions include preheating the kyusu, but what does that actually mean? If it makes a difference, the kyusu I'm using is my adorable little unglazed Gyokko (5.4 oz to the brim) from Artistic Nippon.

Preheating and temps can cause a lot of confusion in vendor directions! I have wanted to do a special topic on this for some time. It is a very good topic that I am sure messes Western brewers up.

Generally the temps on the O-Cha site do NOT include preheating. So, if they say 175*, that is without preheating. I think for the Warashina, I liked the temp a little lower, 170-172* when I had it last harvest.

If you want to preheat, which I often do, figure a conversion of 15*. I generally go with 160* (some teas lower than this ... some a tad higher) with preheating the pot. The temp of the preheated pot will prevent the rapid decrease in temp you would experience if you did not preheat.

Whenever I do preheat, I ALWAYS smell the leaf warming in the kyusu! And, try not to put the leaf into the preheated kyusu too soon ... or for too long. I place the leaf into the kyusu when the water temp in the Yuzamashi is around 162*.

The Warashina Supreme is a wonderful organic asamushi, though I have not opened this shincha version yet.

[Chesslover]

Thats a good question...

Chip - isn't the difference between pouring water in preheated and non-preheated kyusu just in the amount of temperature drop after the water is in kyusu? The temperature of water and kyusu should equalize in both ways andafter that there should be no difference in cooling down the water. Or am I wrong?

From my experience, when pouring water in preheated kyusu, temperature drops for around 5 degrees C and in non-preheated kyusu for around 10 degrees C.

So - is there any difference if you pour 80 degrees C water in preheated kyusu or if you pour 85 degrees C water in non-preheated kyusu - the brewing temperature is either way 75 degrees C?

Don't all the vendors give a temperature of water in kyusu (not before you pour it in kyusu)?

[Chip]

Thats a good question.

Chip - isn't the difference between pouring water in preheated and non-preheated kyusu just in the amount of temperature drop after the water is in kyusu? The temperature of water and kyusu should equalize in both ways andafter that there should be no difference in cooling down the water. Or am I wrong?

Well, good question. Yes and no. ... your theory is very sound!

Seriously, some teas just seem to react better to one or the other. Either that or ove time my taste buds grow too accustomed to the current method I am using and changing to the other method makes for a new tea experience.

It has at times made a huge difference. Other very little.

BTW, a third way is to have the water in the kyusu and pouring the leaf into the water right at the right temp. This is very effective for troublesome teas ... also if you are going to use and infuser basket!!! I learned this one with Chinese teas and used it for a few Japanese teas that were giving me fits. It worked amazingly well.

[Chip]

Don't all the vendors give a temperature of water in kyusu (not before you pour it in kyusu)?

I perceive the pemp indicated as the temp you will pour into the kyusu.

Also a good question! This is such a difficult question to answer. I rarely see references to preheating, sometimes yes. But then how does one explain the wide temp difference from one vendor to another for high grade sencha?

It is my theory that it is almost like an assumption is made by each vendor that you will do what they would do? O-Cha generally does not preheat sencha, this I know. But Den's suggests a much lower temp, 160* for higher grade sencha. I have tried this preheated and non preheated. It works for preheated.

Vendor brewing parameters are guidelines, but we still have to find what works. But hey, tea is fun!!! And once you make a sencha sing that was hitting off notes for you, well, it really makes yoou smile, come on, 'fess up!

They would say we overthink everything ...

[JRS22]

They would say we overthink everything ...

One way that TeaChat is great is we don't have to talk to "them" because we have TeaChat.

Anyway, the discussion so far is very interesting, but doesn't answer the very very, basic, possibly stupid, question - what exactly does one do to a kyusu to preheat it?

[Chip]

Ohhhh ... Heh, sorry about that. I got a bit excited seeing the topic I was considering.

Pour water from your kettle into the kyusu, then pour it into another vessel to finish cooling to the perfect temp! The other vessel can be your cup(s) or a Yuzamashi or a pitcher/fair cup.

[debunix]

I presume suggested temperature is the temp of the water when it meets the tea. For a preheated kyusu, that will be the temp of the water in the cooling vessel before I pour it into the kyusu, since there is very little temperature loss if the kyusu is already hot, and then I add the tea to the water.

For a kyusu that is not preheated, I add the water a little before the idea temperature, and I know my kyusu will generally drop the temp about 10 degrees if it starts out at room temp, so I add water at 170 in the cooling pitcher to yield water at 160 for the brewing.

When in doubt, I leave the water level a little low in the kyusu, measure the temp in the kyusu, and add a little hotter water from the kettle or cooler from the pitcher, to get it just right.

[Tead Off]

I think whatever you choose to do, consistency is most important. I always preheat the kyusu. This also allows me to pour off the water into either cooling bowl or cups to further cool to the desired temp. I'd be willing to bet that most seasoned tea drinkers preheat their vessels. Makes sense to keep gear warmed when using for tea.

[Kevangogh]

I'm struggling with brewing the organic shincha that I purchased, the Warashina Supreme and the Otu-Yutaka...

and

Some brewing suggestions include preheating the kyusu, but what does that actually mean?

There are many different ways to brew green tea. The two you mention above are quite different from one another - one is asamushi and the other is fukamushi. The differences between these two are large, they will come out completely different.

This is how I brew nearly all of my green tea here, it's how most my suppliers do it too.

1) I have a water dispenser which keeps the water at a solid 90C (194F) at all times.

2) I take two cups, each holds about 100ml. I pour the water from the dispenser into the cups. While the water is heating the cups and cooling down, I prepare my kyusu.

3) I add about 6 grams of loose leaf tea into the kyusu. I use a scale every time for this part. If it's gyokuro, double that. This is not hard and fast, it depends on the tea but most teas you can use about that much.

4) By the time I have finished doing step three above, the water in the cups has dropped to 68C (154F). Pour water from the cups into the kyusu.

5) Brew time - this matters. It varies a lot depending on the tea, even if both are fukamushi. For most deep steamed green tea, I usually go 30 seconds on first and second infusions. For asamushi, I'd go one minute to a minute and a half. Regular middle steamed sencha - a minute.

6) by the time the tea has finished brewing, the temp has dropped down to around 62C (143F). Pour into your pre-warmed cups and drink.

Like is stronger? Brew longer and or hotter. Want more intense flavor? Use more leaf. More sweet (and gyokuro)? Add the water to kyusu first, pour into cups, then from cups back into kyusu. There are all kinds of ways to do this. Break out a thermometer in the beginning and take notes, soon you'll figure it out and won't need it anymore.

[Chip]

Kevin, so you are preheating these days for sencha. I thought I had read that you did not and went with the hotter water method? My mistake.

[Kevangogh]

Pre-heating, not pre-heating, it all depends on the water temperature you start with. I don't pre-heat, toss the water, then start my brew, no. If you don't pre-heat, you have to start with hotter water to compensate for the cooling down that occurs when you pour the water into the cold ceramic teacup and teapot. This is why I start off with 90C water, which is way above green tea brewing guidelines. When I start with that water temperature, "by the time the water is in the teapot" it is brewing at around the correct temperature. Am I pre-heating by using the water in the cups for the brew? I don't know, kind of I guess. I don't pre-heat the teapot however. For gyokuro, you definitely have to pre-heat everything in advance because by the time you get the tea into the cups, it's too tepid to drink.

If I wanted a more consistent brew, I would pre-heat the teapot too, which would mean tossing the water out. The way I do it hasn't hurt the taste at all. The temps change quite a bit in that 30 seconds to 1 minute infusion, I'm probably getting different characteristics from any given tea by doing it this way however.

[Chip]

OK, I read again. I read too quickly the first time.

... your temps threw me off a bit. You really brew much cooler w/o preheating the pot than I expected. Interesting.

If I preheat the kyusu, I then pour in water to brew that is 160ish* but usually a tad lower. I use the same water that I used to preheat the pot to brew.

If I do not preheat the kyusu, I use water in the 170-175* range to brew which cools down rapidly.

As you can see, our temps are quite different. I will certainly try this cooler method, and will expect sweeter brew that is less aromatic?

Cups, more times than not, using Hagi these days, and I give them a quick hot "soak" as the first steep is brewing ... inside and outside soaking.

[Chesslover]

I perceive the pemp indicated as the temp you will pour into the kyusu.

It is my theory that it is almost like an assumption is made by each vendor that you will do what they would do? O-Cha generally does not preheat sencha, this I know. But Den's suggests a much lower temp, 160* for higher grade sencha. I have tried this preheated and non preheated. It works for preheated.

So if my assumptions about 10* temperature drop (Celzius - with Fahrenheit that would be around 6*) with non-preheated kyusu and 5* drop C (3* F) with preheated kyusu are correct (based on my measurments and other members' statements) - the right brewing temperature (the temperature when tea meets water) for sencha is around 155* F (68* C)?

And when the O-cha site for Yutaka Midori says brew at 170* F (77* C) this means that tea meets water at 160* F (71* C)?

I have never used so low temperature...

For Yutaka Midori I pour 176* F (80* C) into preheated kyusu to get brewing temperature of 170* F (77* C)...am I doing it wrong?

[Kevangogh]

A drop of 10C would be a drop of 18F. Plus, you probably shouldn't just assume a drop of 10C, try to actually measure it a few times, it could be dropping by 12 C or 8 C.

I wouldn't say you were doing it wrong. How long do you let it set in the teapot? Are you using a high leaf ratio? Depends on the individual tea. There are so many factors.