Banko and green tea

[Intuit]

Moderate-to-better quality Japanese green teas shouldn't need the intercession of teaware to change flavor and aroma, if they are brewed carefully.

If teaware is favored for drinking Japanese greens, the reasons probably are related to heat-lossy qualities of the thin but strong vessel walls, with teapot shape also playing a role in thermal characteristics that influence tea infusion success.

Glazing isn't an issue for Japanese green tea consumption, because these clay surfaces are pretty nonreactive. Tea deposits that form on the vessel internal surface *may* slightly affect bitter component solubility by loosely absorbing or retarding release.

You should consider this:

The farmers are producing teas that have highly desirable flavor and aroma characteristics. Their teas are enthusiastically consumed n fine porcelain equally as often as in rustic carved earthenware. Finely crafted vessels are chosen for aesthetics more than for brewing mechanics.

The only sales hype you see about on the net about the physico-chemical characteristics of Japanese teaware is from vendors who stand to make a substantial profit selling overpriced, 'magical' earthenware teapots.

[t4texas]

There appear to be two camps here. 1) Those who notice positive effects of Banko clay pots from using them and comparing them to porcelain and Tokonome pots, and 2) those who dispute the positive effects of Banko based on theoretical considerations (it shouldn't be, so it must not be) and on the assumption that vendors who make such claims are corrupt.

I'm not a vendor and I am in camp #1. The effects are not that subtle.

[Intuit]

I have Tokoname glazed and unglazed and Banko unglazed teapots. I also have delicate bone china porcelain teapots and shibadorashi from Tokoname.

All of these teapots have the following characteristics: they are very thin-walled and light and they their shape allows room for steeping.

They ring like a bell when stuck lightly, especially the lids. They only way they can resonate in this manner is if the material is especially dense, hard and the matrix is reasonably crystalline. Softer pottery will sound dull by comparison.

The Artistic Nippon home page for bankoware says zero about any special chemical characteristics of banko clays. These clays chosen for their wheel workability; Like Tokoname clays, it can be formed into very thin walled vessels that withstand heating to high temperatures in the kiln to yield sturdy sintered teaware.

[Tead Off]

So we quickly reached the bold letters level...

Perhaps my answer was ambiguous.

"Good (or neutral) clay is essential because bad clay might ruin the taste of tea." meant for me that it is essential to use a non bad clay but that using a neutral material should give you excellent results with Japanese greens too.

I should be able to brew any good sencha in porcelain (which is quite neutral as Oni stated) or any good clay without the sencha being too bitter. If I need a special clay for my sencha not to be too bitter, the problem is inherent to the tea, the water or the brewing technique.
Finding the right water and brewing parameters makes more sense to me that changing of teaware. How could one precise item enhance the taste of all kinds of sencha anyway?

I had some sencha from a Banko and didn't noticed any enhancement but it might have been a bad day or not the right Banko. Anyway, feel free to send me the right one to broaden my experience.

Olivierco, the bold letters were only to distinguish my writing from yours, not to scold or anything like that. Sorry for that confusion.

I can only speak about my own experience. Some people will agree, some won't. I still enjoy my tea and I never contradicted the need for good water, good tea, and, good brewing. I just added good clay.

[Tead Off]

Moderate-to-better quality Japanese green teas shouldn't need the intercession of teaware to change flavor and aroma, if they are brewed carefully.

If teaware is favored for drinking Japanese greens, the reasons probably are related to heat-lossy qualities of the thin but strong vessel walls, with teapot shape also playing a role in thermal characteristics that influence tea infusion success.

Glazing isn't an issue for Japanese green tea consumption, because these clay surfaces are pretty nonreactive. Tea deposits that form on the vessel internal surface *may* slightly affect bitter component solubility by loosely absorbing or retarding release.

You should consider this:

The farmers are producing teas that have highly desirable flavor and aroma characteristics. Their teas are enthusiastically consumed n fine porcelain equally as often as in rustic carved earthenware. Finely crafted vessels are chosen for aesthetics more than for brewing mechanics.

The only sales hype you see about on the net about the physico-chemical characteristics of Japanese teaware is from vendors who stand to make a substantial profit selling overpriced, 'magical' earthenware teapots.

Beware of blasphemy against the Hojo God.

[fortunato]

Quite a controversial subject.
I don't believe in magical clay. Some do and prefer the results obtained with a Banko (even if they prefer their gyokuro in porcelain houhin).
I am quite sure that if banko clay had such a wonderful effect, Japanese tradition of green tea would have discarded any other clay.

It is not because many people are eating Mac Donald's that means it's a great food...

[olivierco]

It is not because many people are eating Mac Donald's that means it's a great food...

Indeed but comparing hundreds of years of Japanese tradition of green tea to fast food seems to be somewhat awkward.

[fortunato]

It is not because many people are eating Mac Donald's that means it's a great food...

Indeed but comparing hundreds of years of Japanese tradition of green tea to fast food seems to be somewhat awkward.

Allez Olivier, 1 peu d'humour/just kidding...

[t4texas]

Humorous, but a good point.

It's traditional in Japan that most people drink lower grade sencha and only a few, few, few drink gyokuro. So gyokuro must be a scam and there must really be no difference between high quality sencha and lower grade. Right?

[olivierco]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism

[fortunato]

Humorous, but a good point.

It's traditional in Japan that most people drink lower grade sencha and only a few, few, few drink gyokuro. So gyokuro must be a scam and there must really be no difference between high quality sencha and lower grade. Right?

When I was in Japan I saw a lot of people drinking low grade sencha with very hot water btw even high grade tea, as they are drinking/eating misorushi soup...

They love hot beverage it seems to get more energy and feel strong as they say 'genki' !

Now to be a little serious as Olivierco, he is talking about hundred years of japanese tradition, ok ! But Tokoname teapots was introduced only since the 19th century and even if we can find Ashikaga clan teapots design sketches from the 16th century who inspired Tokoname potters as Sugie Jyumon.

Don't forget the real sencha was developped in Japan around 1738 by Soen Nagatani...

PS : syllogism or not syllogism that is the question

[Tead Off]

Fortunato,

Tokoname is one of the oldest kilns in Japan and ranks in the top 6 kilns. 800-900 years old.

[fortunato]

Fortunato,

Tokoname is one of the oldest kilns in Japan and ranks in the top 6 kilns. 800-900 years old.

Yes, I know...

I wasn't talking about the Tokoname kilns but about the Tokoname kyusu with the Shudei natural clay wich inspired a japanese potter to use it as Yixing teapots in the middle of the 19th century.

[JBaymore]

Tokoname is considered one of the "6 Ancient Kilns"..... but that designation mainly reflects a long continuous traditon of pottery making that is still functioning. Also, that whole term is a relatively recent "designation" and really means little other than longevity.

To lump all Tokoname work into one sort of "pool" is a bit of a misunderstanding. Tokoname is a large city. The diversity of claywork that currently goes on in Tokoname is vast.... with the tile and toilets of INAX on one end of the spectrum and the irreverent and wonderfully free re-interpretations of Japanese tradition of Koie Ryouji on the other.

There are stellar Tokoname kyusu.... and there are also absolute tourist schlock stuff. And that situation it true of every pottery town I have visited in Japan. THAT is one of the ongoing dichotomies that is Japan as a whole. The sublime right next to the profane.

best,

.................john

[Intuit]

Since we finally have a potter in the mix of discussion here, answer me this:

How much iron can freely and consistently eflux from high-fired iron-rich clay, in very short duration, sub-boiling water solvent contact?

I don't have ready access to an AA (atomic absorption spectrometer) or ICAP (another type of metal analyte detection device for prepared liquid sample analysis) to ascertain if there is active iron complex efflux from this clay.

I'm will to bet that there isn't much reduced iron released. Certainly not enough to compare with, say, an iron kettle, for adding small (micromolar) quantities of iron to low mineral waters, as a subjective 'taste improver'.

If there is absorption kinetics, an alternative mechanism for removing perceived bitterness in Japanese green teas, I would be very, very surprised. Again, the short contact time and relative low porosity of these clays doesn't lend itself to active iron site absorption kinetics.

Especially since the system is HARDLY considered to be 'well mixed'. LOL.

The only thing left is tea residuals absorption to the clay charged surface over time ('surface active-site modification').