Some interesting comments about shu from Cloud

[bearsbearsbears]

I'm having Dayi sticker price shock. <snip> However, $30+ for shu is pretty much unconscionable

2010 Dayi
7562 = $9
7592 = $10
7572 = $13
7452 = $16
Hong yun = $5
Lao cha tou = $12
Golden needle white lotus = $24
Dragon pole = $25

All ready to drink now cuz Dayi makes the best shu. 2009 stuff almost the same price for most recipes (add $1-$4 for most).

Here I'm not trying to say which is better, sheng or shu, or what the different between them. And I think that discussion has done to death else where. But I though what Cloud wrote about shu is interesting.

I think Cloud's "advantages/disadvantages" are spot on. Though I do get an "oomph" from some shu, I'm rarely overpowered by it like I could be with sheng.

I also think he's right in terms of aged shu. He gives the example of the purple sky (紫天) cake: good tea but not worth the high price. I feel the same about most aged shu I've had: good, but nothing I'd pay hundreds of USD for.

[shah82]

I'm talking about shu with some age on them. DTH sells 2007 7262 for $32 now. Dragon Pole 2009 is $37. 2009 Gong Ting is $10. The Dayi shu that I like, 2007 Secret Fragrance, is $29. Yes, you can get *some* Dayi tea, such as GNWL 2007 at older prices like at Red Lantern. I am definitly thinking about buying 2009 just for 2013+ consumption, thinking about the whole gifting culture, 'cause most of this Dayi shu is much higher than many Chinese really can afford to drink, and they're on much cheaper leaves, no matter the labor costs in making good shu. Thus we're talking about margins of profits for everyone in the chain that are more typically equated with mildly boutique sheng. There is a definite bubble in Dayi shu, and not just for the older shu, tho' I do wander what a Menghai Dayi corporate entity would be like in a more modern marketplace. Coca Cola, for example, makes huge profits, relative to the marginal utility of a coke.

I'm sorry, but wine coolers=/wine, and anytime you see such an increase in prices of more or less ready to drink shu such that they are getting comparable to sheng...

[bearsbearsbears]

I'm talking about shu with some age on them. <snip> I am definitly thinking about buying 2009 just for 2013+ consumption

I don't see why you need to drink Dayi shu that's 4 years old. The whole point of shu is that it's ready to drink off the press/pile. It may improve with a few years to air out, but that's an improvement over already drinkable, quite tasty shu.

Find one (or two, or three) 2010/2011 Dayi recipe you like and buy a stack (or two, or three). By the time you finish the fourth cake, it'll probably be 4 years down the line, and the tea will be marginally better.

[shah82]

That is, eventually, what I plan to do. I do think it's wise to point out that smaller leaf and very lightly fermented shu do need that time.

[shah82]

Another reason I'm fixated by the older stuff is that it's what I've tasted, and my general impression is that Dayi only has so much of good leaf headed for shu, and they switch around quality leaf to various product lines in order to build excitement for the concept, and when that's done, move the good shu-maker to other products. A slight extension is that I suspect that Secret Fragrance is a failure in the sense that the process didn't make an especially fragrant shu, tho' there is a nice unusual floral hint if you sniff hard enough. What it does have is aftertaste, lotsa qi, smoothness, and some complexity. There isn't a new version of this blend, unless you try out some of the other high mountain stuff. I know I don't like Cloud Atlas, for example...

[bearsbearsbears]

That is, eventually, what I plan to do. I do think it's wise to point out that smaller leaf and very lightly fermented shu do need that time.

I haven't found that to be the case with Dayi shu. Most, if not all, Dayi shu is "pre aged" before pressing. I haven't drunk a lighter or gongting grade Dayi shu and had any off flavors, no matter the year. And I find their shu blends very consistent across years.

All of the above have made a loyal customer out of me because with other brands of shu, of course, things can be off at first (or forever)--including other big factories (XG, Haiwan, Mengku), in my experience.

<snip>...my general impression is that Dayi only has so much of good leaf headed for shu, and they switch around quality leaf to various product lines in order to build excitement for the concept, and when that's done, move the good shu-maker to other products.

That seems possible for the new productions. I know you mentioned Hong Yun not as good as its first release, and others have said the same of v93. But, I haven't found that the classic recipes have suffered in quality because of it.

[shah82]

I don't mean off-flavors when it comes to lightly fermented shu. Lightly fermented shu, I find, needs time to mellow out and be fuller in flavor as well. Gong-ting and other small leaf, I've merely read, can take longer to clear out wo dui. I do know that the XZH gift set shu had some wo dui when I first tried it, but that cleared out quick. I have never had super-young Dayi shu other than the 100g stuff and the 2009 Dragon Pole. In both cases, aren't they quite a bit less likely to be funky than the numbered recipes? The 2007 7262 bing I have has some not properly fermented leaf in it, and those can be really disgusting, so I'm pretty motivated to have older shu. I also don't think I should have to pay through the nose for them.

[shah82]

As far as consistency, my reading in the pu'erosphere suggests that Dayi can be inconsistent. The 2005 and 2007 GNWL don't really feel to be especially similar, I can't tell 'cause I haven't had the 2005. There are quite a few reports of differences between the v93 of different years. Same with Hong Yun from '08, '09, and '10. Among somewhat older Dayi, there are strong preferences for 7572 and 7262 from various years. I could go on. Not that I'm really disagreeing with you here, but just on what I read...

[MarshalN]

The 2005 and 2007 GNWL don't really feel to be especially similar, I can't tell 'cause I haven't had the 2005. There are quite a few reports of differences between the v93 of different years. Same with Hong Yun from '08, '09, and '10. Among somewhat older Dayi, there are strong preferences for 7572 and 7262 from various years. I could go on. Not that I'm really disagreeing with you here, but just on what I read...

So it sounds like you have zero personal experience on which to base your claims then?

Since you mostly drink very young sheng, I'd say just stick to it and let the shu drinkers have their say. I personally don't drink shu unless I'm forced to, but that's because I'd rather drink other teas, but I'm pretty sure a good dayi shu is worth $30.

[bearsbearsbears]

Lightly fermented shu, I find, needs time to mellow out and be fuller in flavor as well.

In my experience, light fermented shu becomes bland with age, not more interesting. There's an idea that because the fermentation is to a lesser degree, that it leaves room for the tea to age. But I don't find that's the case: oxidizing shu "naturally" in the open air won't have the same effect as fermenting in the pile, nor the same effect as oxidizing green pu.

I have never had super-young Dayi shu other than the 100g stuff and the 2009 Dragon Pole. In both cases, aren't they quite a bit less likely to be funky than the numbered recipes?

I've never had a "funky" Dayi. I had a 2007 7262 and drank it relatively quick; mine did not have any off flavors like pondiness or sourness. I could have been lucky, and I only had one cake.

Regarding your thoughts on consistency of recipe cakes, quality varies by harvest year, but I think Dayi does a good job of keeping the flavors and quality consistent. I'd suggest you let yourself try the same recipe over the course of a few years and gather your own thoughts from experience.

[apache]

It's very good to have good discussion going here and we all learn by this.

Before I went through all the notes, one thing I would like to point out after re-read my translation of some of Cloud comments is: When Cloud says a shu is good, I think what he means is this the shu tastes outstanding. When us mere common mortal say a shu is good, we mean it is palatable!

[bearsbearsbears]

When Cloud says a shu is good, I think what he means is this the shu tastes outstanding. When us mere common mortal say a shu is good, we mean it is palatable!

If there ever is a book of famous tea quotes, this will earn a place in it!

[MarshalN]

Before I went through all the notes, one thing I would like to point out after re-read my translation of some of Cloud comments is: When Cloud says a shu is good, I think what he means is this the shu tastes outstanding. When us mere common mortal say a shu is good, we mean it is palatable!

Methinks a better translation is that he means the shu he has a stock of is good, but I digress.

[apache]

Before I went through all the notes, one thing I would like to point out after re-read my translation of some of Cloud comments is: When Cloud says a shu is good, I think what he means is this the shu tastes outstanding. When us mere common mortal say a shu is good, we mean it is palatable!

Methinks a better translation is that he means the shu he has a stock of is good, but I digress.

Ha Ha Ha, I see what you mean. Great translation!

[Milhouse]

I'm much happier having that $30 cake of Dayi than i would be having 2 cheaper cakes. A good cake of any either tea is worth a few extra $$. I feel the same way about drinking liquor, you'll never see me ordering a martini with cheap gin.

+1 on the tea quote