Copper-Tin Teapot

[chingwa]

Very timely... I was just speaking with Hojo about his teapot lineup. He suggests though that because I have a Kunzan tetsubin, there can be possible difficulties with certain clay types... shigaraki in particular. Of course he mentions on his site and reaffirmed in his email to me about the great compatibility between Kunzan and these tsuiki-doki tin pots. I dunno... they look pretty... this is the first I've encountered a tin teapot though. And the price IS a bit uppity... about $300 for the 250ml version.

I was so set on getting one these rough shigaraki pots raved about here. I'd hate to spend the money and have some unforseen tea imbalance between my equipment though...

[Ambrose]

I dont know about the copper tin pot, to me its not appealing. The money is all in the hard craftsmanship .

I do have experience with the shigaraki and the black sado and soon the new sado.

The effect of black sado to shigaraki is very noticeable one. Shigaraki is more rounding with less after taste than sado black. The Sado black is not as rounding but much deeper after taste.

His new line of of sado red clay pots are something he was working on for the past yr but until now just made it right. The regular sado line up, or the black line up I should say has a 50 to 50 ratio of Mumyoi red clay and Nosaka red clay. This is needed for viscosity on the wheel. The new blend is over 80 to 20. Its a new source of sado clay as well. Not only that but its low fired to help the interaction of water to the clay. Its said to retain more aroma and have a similar yet greater effect than black sado.

I see Hojo as a vendor that is always searching and experimenting looking for the best. He is one of few that I know that commission these master potters to do custom experiments with him. From sourcing clays to fire testing the clay to the right temp for best interaction. So in my opinion he is always upgrading as best he can. He is a vendor after all and needs to make money and he seems to do this by introducing the latest thing he has sourced. Nothing wrong with that I think, in fact I think its great.

It does stink when you're left with the old and here comes the new. That's just part of the journey.

YMMV and all that, im just a fan

[David R.]

Compulsive buyers have to learn patience !

Well I say that being one of them... I have bought quite a few pots from him and, as far as I am concerned, I can really attest the improvement of his selection. What a difference between the first batch of red Sado pots and the last one ! Those who discuss with him know the time and effort he spends in research to always improve his selection. Even if I don't use some of the first pots I got from him, I am still happy to have them. But I can easily understand why other people don't and are now disappointed.

I don't know where stands China in the research of new/better clay for teapots. I know that there are more and more yixing on the market, that prices are building up. What about quality ?

I have heard about research in Taïwan to develop new clays, such as Lin's Ceramics Purion. We always think that "old is better" for Yixing which may be true, but nowadays methods must be able to help and develop almost as good clays, don't you think ? I really don't know, I am just thinking out loud here.

Hojo uses his relations with japanese artists to make them improve their clays to be more efficient in the tea making. Like in every fields of research (medicine, computer,...), there are improvement made every now and then and new and better models replacing less efficient ones. I think this is ok and pretty much a good sign for the future.

[shinobicha]

by MarshalN » May 18th, '11, 09:47

Tin is not THAT sturdy.

That's why it is copper on the outside- copper is pretty sturdy.

by MarshalN » May 18th, '11, 12:37

Copper makes everything smells like copper. Ever tried smelling a penny? Not pleasant. Copper is also relatively poisonous

That's why the teapot is 99.99% tin on the inside. This is perfectly safe. Hojo used to be in food safety; I don't think for one minute he would knowingly sell products that could be dangerous for human consumption.


Before you criticize teaware, make sure you really know what it is. It sounds like you first said it couldn't be sturdy if it was all made of tin but didn't look right (and included a picture of a tin teapot); then you said it is probably dangerous because it is all made of copper. I'm not saying you can't explain your reasons for believing a particular piece of teaware isn't good, but that you should do so effectively and constructively.

by Bob_McBob » May 18th, '11, 14:23

I guess I was thinking of his ultra super secret tetsubin pricing.

At $340 for the cheapest tinned teapot he sells, I hope you are buying it for the looks rather than the effect it supposedly has on tea taste. You can get tinned copper teapots on eBay for $10-20.

I'm not sure if the fact that it is 99.99% tin inside is the reason they are a lot more expensive, however, I know they are entirely hand-beaten, whereas the ones you find on ebay are probably machine made. Do a Google search for "Tsuiki-doki" or "Tsuikidoki" and you will find a few other vendors in Japan selling this kind of tea or sake wear for around $600 - $800 or more.

Perhaps Hojo is just using smooth sales techniques to sell over-priced teaware. Or perhaps he is actually passionate about what he does and tries to continually improve his products and use knowledge in chemistry, etc. to discover better teas, sources of clay, etc.

I don't have experience with any of his products yet, but of all the reviews of people here who actually own them seem to believe the "smooth sales technique" is actually speaking the truth about high quality products.

[MarshalN]

That's why it is copper on the outside- copper is pretty sturdy.

I know, I was responding to someone saying tin is very sturdy, which it is not. I was not talking about this pot in particular, but tin in general.

That's why the teapot is 99.99% tin on the inside. This is perfectly safe. Hojo used to be in food safety; I don't think for one minute he would knowingly sell products that could be dangerous for human consumption.

I have some copper chataku -- now, chataku don't touch my tea, but just being proximate to the tea and occasionally getting wet, I can smell the copper when I am drinking the tea. A copper exterior teapot will do the same, which means I will be smelling copper while making tea. It's not pleasant.

Before you criticize teaware, make sure you really know what it is. It sounds like you first said it couldn't be sturdy if it was all made of tin but didn't look right (and included a picture of a tin teapot); then you said it is probably dangerous because it is all made of copper. I'm not saying you can't explain your reasons for believing a particular piece of teaware isn't good, but that you should do so effectively and constructively.

I didn't say it didn't look right in the sense that it didn't look like a copper exterior, tin interior pot - I am not that stupid, thank you very much. Rather, I was pointing out that there are real tin teapots out there, and this isn't one, since it's mostly copper. Someone was calling it a tin teapot, which it is not -- it's a copper teapot lined with tin on the interior. They're not identical. I was just pointing that out to make my point.

In my experience these linings do, over time, wear away. They're not forever, and I've seen some of these pots effectively reduced to the copper body both on the inside and outside, so I'm not totally convinced that they are good for the long run.

[edkrueger]

by MarshalN » May 18th, '11, 12:37

Copper makes everything smells like copper. Ever tried smelling a penny? Not pleasant. Copper is also relatively poisonous

That's why the teapot is 99.99% tin on the inside. This is perfectly safe. Hojo used to be in food safety; I don't think for one minute he would knowingly sell products that could be dangerous for human consumption.

Good to know only the outside is poisonous and going to make everything smell and taste like copper.

I don't have experience with any of his products yet, but of all the reviews of people here who actually own them seem to believe the "smooth sales technique" is actually speaking the truth about high quality products.

Some of the stuff he says is clearly wrong. No offense, but of there is a psychological incentive for people who shelled out the money to believe it is magic.

[entropyembrace]

throw out all your old teapots Hojo just came up with something new and better!

where have I heard something like this before?

oh yeah....when mainstream fashion designers try to make their customers buy a whole new wardrobe every year.

[chingwa]

throw out all your old teapots Hojo just came up with something new and better!

Just to keep things in perspective, it isn't Hojo himself that has been saying this... but people reading into his intentions. I also don't think he is saying they are better than any of his other selection, but that they meet a certain standard of quality that (debatable to some?) is higher than your normal teaware dealer. I certainly don't think he would have them for sale on his site if they didn't perform very well for the flavor of tea. ...I'm sure he could make a killing selling similarly priced tokoname ware of dubious origin if he wanted...

In speaking further with Hojo about these pots he said that there is effectively nothing special about these particular tin-lined pots as they perform with tea, and that tin pots in general will usually have a similar effect (essentially being they will enhance the flavor of almost any tea). He did say the purity of these pots can be vouched for, which isn't always the case when you don't know where your teapot is sourced from. Also these pots, as with all tsuiki-doki ware are completely handmade... thus of course the higher price.

As shinobicha mentioned though, if you look at other tsuiki-doki ware the prices are pretty staggering... in comparison these pots are on the low-end of the price spectrum.

I am still considering whether to buy one or not. It may be good for me to think about other things for a few days before making a decision...

[shinobicha]

MarshalN,

Apologies for my comment saying you didn't know what Hojo's teapot was. Clearly I was the one who misunderstood your meaning in using the tin teapot to illustrate that Hojo's is not actually a tin teapot.

In my experience these linings do, over time, wear away. They're not forever, and I've seen some of these pots effectively reduced to the copper body both on the inside and outside, so I'm not totally convinced that they are good for the long run.

I have no experience with them, so that is good to know. Thanks.
What exactly causes it to wear away, though? So you've had a 99% tin-lined teapot, and the tin actually wore away through the use of just brewing tea? (I'm not disagreeing, just wanting to really know what your experience was).


edkrueger,

Good to know only the outside is poisonous and going to make everything smell and taste like copper.

I think the safety concern could be solved with a simple question to Hojo Is the copper itself coated (like standard copper pots and pans)? Etc.

Some of the stuff he says is clearly wrong. No offense, but of there is a psychological incentive for people who shelled out the money to believe it is magic.

Yes, I thought about that. If you buy a $300 teapot, you are sure going to hope it was worth it so badly that you might even imagine it is better. There is that real possibility. You could believe that, or, you could also believe an experience that suggests the flavor or aftertaste (or whatever) is enhanced by the teapot. I'm not saying that either way is true, but simply that there are two possibilities here and either one seems just as likely to me at this point.

I'm curious though - what are the things you say that he says are "clearly wrong?" (just wanting to know what led you to that belief).

[Chip]

TeaPeeps are passionate about teaware. The more expensive teaware is, the more passioante they can be ... however also the more controversial they will also be.

I seem to be one of the few more neutral members on the subject of Hojo in general. However I do happen to hear a lot of similar discussions on Yixing in general!

So, is Hojo just very passionate or is he over zealous, or is he misleading? TBH, I care more about a vendor selling crappy tea and extolling the benefits of their tea over all others.

Bottom line, he offers some truly beautiful wares and you will pay for them. I was able to fortunately obtain a Shigaraki kyusu in a TC TeaSwap. I am in love with the pot, it is incredibly well made ... seemingly perfect. And despite the very rough clay used, the lid fit is smooth as silk. I am still giddy over this pot despite having it now for many months. Whenever I happen to PM this member, I mention the pot and how pleased I am with it.

So, I definitely do not feel "screwed" in the least in "buying" this pot which may now not be the "hottest clay for brewing tea on the planet."

I would buy teaware from this vendor, though I am resigned to look and lust as it is not cheap, but I feel the value is there for the kyusu-s I have looked at.

Having said that, I just do not personally get too wrapped up in all the discussions on the benefits of X clay over Y clay, etc. If I really like the kyusu, and it is made by a reputable artisan with a clay that I like and that is a "good clay," I would more likely buy it for these reasons and then count my blessings if it so happens to improve my tea!

[shinobicha]

Thanks Chip;
I'm glad to hear again that the prices and quality of Hojo's teapots (in your limited experience at least) really do agree.

My biggest concern is that I could break such a teapot, and usually those kind of things can't be repaired.

Does anyone else have that concern when spending hundreds on a teapot? It's one of the main reasons I was more drawn to the copper-tin pots, because of stability and likelihood of lasting years.

[Chip]

My biggest concern is that I could break such a teapot, and usually those kind of things can't be repaired.

Does anyone else have that concern when spending hundreds on a teapot? It's one of the main reasons I was more drawn to the copper-tin pots, because of stability and likelihood of lasting years.

Absolutely! Funny story ... the first time I picked up an expensive kyusu was at the Ito-en NYC store. I saw a tiny kyusu on the shelf, well several. I was excited because I had never seen a kyusu in a store before.

This looked like a cheap, plain clay kyusu (due to my gross inexperience at the time). I eagerly picked it up, it was uber light ... again I thought cheap and fragile too.

Then I looked for a price ... my hands literally began to shake when I saw the 400ish USD price tag ... to the point I was afraid I was going to break it.

I do get nervous when handling very fragile and expensive kyusu-s. Especially since I have a habit of chipping the extremely fragile and succeptable spout tip.

Teaware is impermanent.

[wyardley]

I seem to be one of the few more neutral members on the subject of Hojo in general. However I do happen to hear a lot of similar discussions on Yixing in general!

So, is Hojo just very passionate or is he over zealous, or is he misleading?

I've never posted on the subject of Hojo, nor have I ever purchased anything from him. So I consider myself fairly neutral on the subject, but I think part of the reason you see criticism is that a) his "followers" are almost cult-like in their devotion, and b) he makes pseudo-scientific sounding statements without even remotely backing them up. Do other folks on the forum do such a thing? Probably, but they're posting on an internet forum, not trying to sell you something, and they generally don't have a swarm of disciples.

[Chip]

I seem to be one of the few more neutral members on the subject of Hojo in general. However I do happen to hear a lot of similar discussions on Yixing in general!

So, is Hojo just very passionate or is he over zealous, or is he misleading?

I've never posted on the subject of Hojo, nor have I ever purchased anything from him. So I consider myself fairly neutral on the subject, but I think part of the reason you see criticism is that a) his "followers" are almost cult-like in their devotion, and b) he makes pseudo-scientific sounding statements without even remotely backing them up. Do other folks on the forum do such a thing? Probably, but they're posting on an internet forum, not trying to sell you something, and they generally don't have a swarm of disciples.

Similar statements could be made about many sellers of Yixing. I am not arguing, I have just see this a lot over the years.

I sometimes go by the "ignorance is bliss" mantra ... seriously, on some subjects like clay, TMI can overwhelm me.

[shinobicha]

chip wrote: Then I looked for a price ... my hands literally began to shake when I saw the 400ish USD price tag ... to the point I was afraid I was going to break it.

I do get nervous when handling very fragile and expensive kyusu-s. Especially since I have a habit of chipping the extremely fragile and succeptable spout tip.

Teaware is impermanent.

Funny story!

Yeah... that's one reason I'm not in a hurry to buy a teapot over $100...
Maybe I'll just buy the $25 semi-handmade banko. Even if it has little or no effect on the tea, maybe it will, and I like the way they look, and $25 is much less to risk. I've only owned one kyusu so far (one of Den's) and though it's been less than a year, I've already cracked off part of the inside rim that holds up the lid (though most of it remains so the lid can still be set on the pot) and I cracked the lid in half too (which we were able to glue back together). So my track record thus far is poor.