Bad Yixing Teapots?

[gasninja]

Having recently returned from being hosted by the Yixing government and Wuxi Institute ot Technology and Arts in doing a presentation on American ceramics and Ameriocan ceramic arts education there in Yixing, I would like to reinforce the thought that the good handmade pots are VERY expensive.

Unless you are in Yixing and can walk the back streets and know what to look for, (meaning finding a "deal" direct from a lesser known potter)...... $100 won't buy you much.

Save you pennies. A couple hundred US dollars is the very BOTTOM of the Yixing handmade heap.

I posted some info on pots there somewhere else in the forums here... but the pots that I (as a potter) were looking at were in the thousands each. And they were not the really good stuff, they were the ones that I felt would be the ones that I MIGHT ever want to have (if I were much richer than I am) based on the craftsmanship and the clays.

Top end for stuff I saw was about $19,000.00 each. Yeah... the decimal point is in the right place. Contemporary, living artist, not historical stuff.

If you were willing to spend about $500.00, I MIGHT be able to connect you directly (or through an intermediary friend) to a mid-career woman ceramic artist in Yixing who might be able to sell directly to you. But that is the LOW end of her pricing. Nice stuff, nice lady.

best,

.....................john

That is sort of unfair . You seem as if you are trying to scare people off. One does not need a master pot or even a handmade pot to make good to all you need is good clay and decent craftsmanship. there is no need to spend 500 dollar to get a "real" yixing pot. I am having trouble deciding between two 80s factory one pots each made with beautiful looking hongni and they are bothwell under 200 dolars.

[tingjunkie]

Having recently returned from being hosted by the Yixing government and Wuxi Institute ot Technology and Arts in doing a presentation on American ceramics and Ameriocan ceramic arts education there in Yixing, I would like to reinforce the thought that the good handmade pots are VERY expensive.

That is sort of unfair . You seem as if you are trying to scare people off. One does not need a master pot or even a handmade pot to make good to all you need is good clay and decent craftsmanship. there is no need to spend 500 dollar to get a "real" yixing pot. I am having trouble deciding between two 80s factory one pots each made with beautiful looking hongni and they are bothwell under 200 dolars.

This is an issue of one key word that makes all the difference- "handmade" vs "real." A fully handmade pot, especially a "good" one as JBaymore wrote, will be quite pricey in today's market. Finding a good useable "real" (likely half-handmade) pot is going to come a lot cheaper.

[TIM]

Having recently returned from being hosted by the Yixing government and Wuxi Institute ot Technology and Arts in doing a presentation on American ceramics and Ameriocan ceramic arts education there in Yixing, I would like to reinforce the thought that the good handmade pots are VERY expensive.

That is sort of unfair . You seem as if you are trying to scare people off. One does not need a master pot or even a handmade pot to make good to all you need is good clay and decent craftsmanship. there is no need to spend 500 dollar to get a "real" yixing pot. I am having trouble deciding between two 80s factory one pots each made with beautiful looking hongni and they are bothwell under 200 dolars.

This is an issue of one key word that makes all the difference- "handmade" vs "real." A fully handmade pot, especially a "good" one as JBaymore wrote, will be quite pricey in today's market. Finding a good useable "real" (likely half-handmade) pot is going to come a lot cheaper.

+1

[Tead Off]

So, if it is necessary to spend 500$ for a real step-up, I will eventually do that. But do I have to? Or can I get a pot with les aesthetic value and less craftsmanship, but with roughtly the same tea-brewing qualities, for significantly less money?

It is NOT necessary to spend $500 for a step-up from glazed pots, but Yixing is a big subject and various levels of understanding this market is needed to make good choices. It takes a long time to become familiar with all the aspects of clay, workmanship, age, and marketing. This requires study and handling of work. If you are not in a position to do that, you must rely on a vendor or friend to guide you into it. Gingko, from LIfe in Teacup, could definitely help you as she is not a cut-throat mercenary who just wants to sell,sell,sell. She is also a student of all of this and is full of good, useful, information for beginners. Many people here are familiar with her and trust her. Ebay is for people who either haven't a clue or have developed their eye to an extent that they could get something interesting.

One thing that is good to understand is that the terms 'handmade' and 'half-handmade', are nearly synonymous. In Yixing, half-handmade refers to the different segments of the teapot being formed in a mould. The clay is simply inserted into a mould and formed by hand. It is then hand assembled using the same forming and finishing that a 100% handmade pot undergoes. The finishing is key to both categories. A handmade can look worse than a half-handmade and vice versa. Depends on the skill of the potter. The clay could even be identical. Cost is the factor separating the two categories. Many older pots are half-handmade in the Yixing factories. Sometimes, it is very difficult or impossible to tell one from the other.

So, you see, picking a vendor at your stage, is very important. Pick a vendor who talks about the clay used, not just naming it as this or that. Pick a vendor who actually knows the potter(s). Yixing is an industry. Thousands of potters vying for a piece of heaven. This will create a lot of competition and artists who will strive to be better than the next. It will also create a lot of cheating. Good Luck.

[chrl42]

Just letting tea folks know....

The price of Yixing teapot, has risen x3 to x5~10 than it was 2 years ago, due to interest of 1.5 billion.

Some of the grand master (about 10 persons) Yixings was buy-able under 100.000 RMB (15k?) 2 years ago...not anymore. Gu Jing-zhou's Ti Bi handled Yixing set was sold at about 10.000.000 RMB (4 lamborghinis) this year.

China market is like that, the speed of changing is incredible. Many Koreans came to China as a trend years ago, so many withdrew unless they came with a big brand like Samsung...the Koreans from confucius country has not conquored the Chinese, who knew more about commerce, they are certainly better seller and buyer than Koreans. Especially southern Chinese, who drink tea and collect Yixing teapot (and make), them folks from Wenzhou and HK roll the Beijing real-estate.


Well..gotta go...too many tasks waiting to be done

[betta]

Since I'm starting to look out for some decent teapots, especially for Shu PU and Phoenix Oolongs, I've been reading topics concerning this subject. At present I'm using glazed pots for everything, but I'd like to switch to something more High-End. And one of the main questions was: How much do I need to spend to get a decent Yixing teapot?

If you say, an authentic, well-made pot costs at least several hundred dollars, thats frightening I was hoping to afford two or three decent pots for, maybe, 100€ per piece (thats about 130 $ at present).

As a reference from my direct experience in Guangdong China:
Winter 2010 with 6€ one could buy a yixing teapot made of zisha.
Fall 2013 with 13€ one could only buy a yixing teapot made of zini. Here the ni = mud. As the teashop owner is a long time friend of my close relatives, he openly said that this zini is the same material for making bonsai flower pot. Added to that, most of the so called yixing pots in the market are not at all made in Yixing.

Some of the grand master (about 10 persons) Yixings was buy-able under 100.000 RMB (15k?) 2 years ago...not anymore. Gu Jing-zhou's Ti Bi handled Yixing set was sold at about 10.000.000 RMB (4 lamborghinis) this year.

Regarding the pot from Gu Jing Zhou at the price of four lamborghinis, let me borrow a famous expert's saying: the cultural value of this item is higher than its economical value (price of clay + workmanship)

I am currently buying the last batch of my teaware for my old days before this "cultural value" sends its price beyond sanity

[hopeofdawn]

Or, just to put a thought out for consideration, you could consider some of the unglazed pots produced by Korean, Japanese or Western potters. There are a lot of artists out there making some beautiful and functional work--I personally can especially vouch for Petr Novak's pieces. He makes a lot of unglazed pieces that I've found are very adept at handling all the teas I've tried at them. They might not have the Yixing cachet, but they do have a magic of their own ...

[TIM]

Dying to see your last Batch betta. Do show please. HNY!

[NPE]

Or, just to put a thought out for consideration, you could consider some of the unglazed pots produced by Korean, Japanese or Western potters. There are a lot of artists out there making some beautiful and functional work--I personally can especially vouch for Petr Novak's pieces. He makes a lot of unglazed pieces that I've found are very adept at handling all the teas I've tried at them. They might not have the Yixing cachet, but they do have a magic of their own ...

I can absolutely second that one! I have some wonderful pots from them and in some cases they beat the yixings that are paired with the same tea as some of the artisan teapots. I particularly like Seong-il's onggi and Petr's unglazed pots with pu-erh and darker oolongs while Andrzej's unglazed pots excel with greener high mountain oolongs.

Yixing teapots and TeaChat artisan teapots are very difficult to compare because they have each their completely unique flair, but when it comes to getting the biggest bang for your buck: the TC artisan pots is where you really can get it without any niggling doubts about authenticity

Note: Edited due to some misunderstanding caused by too hasty reading originally

[debunix]

It's never made sense to me that one place and one place only would happen to have clay that could suit a particular tea. Some of my favorite unglazed pot/tea combinations are a Tokoname kyusu that is brilliant with Taiwanese mountain oolongs (light roasted greens); and a Petr Novak treebark pot for dark roasted oolongs, especially from Wuyi (I've got another one coming that I'll be using with puerhs). I had an unglazed kyusu from Shawn McGuire also had an affinity for dark roasted oolongs and shu puerhs, but it met with an unfortunate fate. Not to knock yixings, but just to note that there are more affordable treasures elsewhere, not currently involved in a classic market bubble.

[Tead Off]

Nothing can rival the masterworks of Yixing pottery anywhere in this world. It is not only the clay, it is hundreds of years of innovation, refinement, and culture that has gone into the creation of a wholistic system including some very special clays and techniques of preparing the clays for forming. This is not about whether a modern day artisan can produce a nice looking and brewing teapot with good clay. Yixing is much deeper than that. Once you click with it, nothing can take its place. There is a uniqueness there that cannot be duplicated. While I love and use other artisan pots, I would give them up before I would give up my Yixing pots. Without a doubt.

[JBaymore]

I was in no way trying to "scare anyone off". I'm sorry if you felt that way about what I said. My apologies. If a pot you have makes the tea you like, and the aesthetic quilities of the work are secondary for you, ......... that is all you need to know. But for anyone to expect to buy what is generally considered a "good" Yixing piece (handmade with skill, and out of quality clay) for a relative song is rather unrealistic.

The reality of Yixing and the perception of what Yixing is, as expressed many times here on the forum, often are at GREAT odds. I know that what I thought I "knew" about Yixing and Yixing pots from reading and studying from afar.......... and the reality of actually being there and having (professional) access to a LOT of information and people was a real shocker. Some very positive, some not so much.

Yixing is not some quaint "pottery village", it is a big city. And many of the "Yixing" pots are not made actually IN Yixing itself, but in immediately surrounding towns. The vast, vast, VAST majority of the pots being produced there are what you'd have to call factory made, and made with clay bodies that are far from the "good clays" everyone thinks they are. Some of the factories are smallish... sometimes with a handfull of employees and some are huge operations.

Overall, there is a massive "industrial machine" kind of operation in Yixing that produces an unbelievable number of pots a week, month, year. Yixing IS pots. I was absolutely ASTOUNDED at the volume of pots being produced in and moved out of Yixing. It is mind boggling.

But that is NOT in any way to say that all of this massive flow of work is of the level that the overall mystique implies.

Most places are getting their clay from large commercial suppliers that are blending clay bodies from numerous raw material sources. As best as I could tell, pretty much the only people using the pure "good" clays anymore are the true artisans. And this went into what apparently many here would call expensive work.

Actual artisanal kinds of work certainly exist also. But they are not typically inexpensive, except as I mentioned already........ if you can walk around the warrens of small back street workshops where relatively poor (economically) potters are handcrafting some decent works. There you can find some real bargains.

But the average westerner is not going to see these pieces from "afar". And if such an artisan is marketing their pieces to some sort of wholesaler that is then supplying some internet shop or something like that, the normal kind of 3 level markup for these works is going to make the pricing well into the couple of hundred bucks+ range at the least.

Overall, market forces are at play (as has been mentioned). The simple "Yixing" mystique itself affects the price of the work from the area in general, and the city government, the artists, and the factories certainly play that aspect up, as they SHOULD. It is their stock-in-trade. It is the "Brand".

Within that "Brand", an artist's "name" certainly matters too. It can be the difference between a a $100 price tag, $1000 price tag, and a $10,000 price tag. This is no different than in any artistic medium. Does it matter to you? Only you can answer that.

On occasion, when I was in a situation that someone did not know who I was or about my clay background, I was told things about the genesis of some pots that as a professional I KNEW were not true. The average non-potter layperson would have had no way to know this. That too was the reality.

That stuff is the simple reality as I experienced it. Could I be wrong.... for sure. If you don't believe me, take a trip. It'll be an eye-opener for sure.

best,

.................john

Small Teapot Workshops

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Working Handcraft Artist

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Her Work

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[MEversbergII]

With JBaymore on this one - it's important to realize it's a brand name as much as anything else.

M.

[miig]

Oh my... all these manifold responses and opinions truly demonstrate how diverse the Yixing world is.
Thank you all, and especially you, John, I'm sure that your standards are truly high and that you are able to appreciate good Yixing ware in a way that I maybe never will. It was a really valuable contribution to see what the difference is between a nicely done pot which will brew very decent tea and something that is actually good in all respects.

Of course this raised more questions than it answered, as every good response does, demonstrating the complexity of the world and of certain subjects! I think others will appreciate this, too, and now I've got a lot to think about. I was a bit naive, thinking there would be the simple answer in form of a two- or three-digit number, telling me what a good pot is. Now I need to make up my mind on how much good I want to have, and to afford

On a side note: What worries me a bit is that a too precious teapot, (aside from bancrupting me ) will take attention away from the tea, but that of course cannot be generalized. Anyways, really great answers, I'm very happy with this diverse and responsive forum.

warm greetings!

[wyardley]

Having recently returned from being hosted by the Yixing government and Wuxi Institute ot Technology and Arts in doing a presentation on American ceramics and Ameriocan ceramic arts education there in Yixing, I would like to reinforce the thought that the good handmade pots are VERY expensive.

Unless you are in Yixing and can walk the back streets and know what to look for, (meaning finding a "deal" direct from a lesser known potter)...... $100 won't buy you much.

I have not visited myself, but from what I've heard, as with many things in China, it may actually be harder to get a good deal close to the source, simply because pottery is what most people who go to Yixing are looking for (in the same way, good yancha in Wuyishan or good Longjing in Hangzhou may cost more than equivalent tea in a major city far away).

I have heard similar claims to what you're saying when I went to a seminar (in the US) featuring some Yixing craftspeople. It probably is true that the masters have access to the best clay, but I do think it's important not to be too swayed by the sales pitch of people who have quite an interest in selling expensive pots.

While it is hard to find mid-level pots with good clay and good enough workmanship, I don't think it's practical for most of us to seek out master level pots for our daily tea making.