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Jun 22nd, '09, 17:19
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by MarshalN » Jun 22nd, '09, 17:19

clareandromeda wrote: This is what I am asking, why is Banko different?
Because Banko is not confined to one region, which is why it's different. The term Banko can refer to wares made in places that are quite far from each other, whereas in the case of Yixing and Tokoname they shouldn't be.
clareandromeda wrote:Why do you say "for our purposes here", are you aware of my purpose?
Let's not get combative here. From what I can tell, you were trying to figure out what these terms mean in terms of how the wares actually look/act/behave/should be. In that case, Banko is a pretty good descriptor for the type of Japanese pottery that it describes.

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Jun 22nd, '09, 18:16
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by clareandromeda » Jun 22nd, '09, 18:16

I do get combative sometimes when I feel it is warranted. If I misinterpreted your tone I am sorry but looking over this thread again I felt like you were "speaking down" to me. If that was unintentional on your part it is something that perhaps you should try to be aware of.
Ok moving on.

Because an internet search on Banko, yields just sites selling Banko teaware I see on yuuki-cha that; "Well known for their temperature retaining iron rich clay, functionality, and for being produced by highly experienced potters."

Hojo refers to Banko as "purple clay"
Ok so...
"Banko" refers to iron content and is "purple" clay. Is Banko just a Japanese term for clay type (purple)?

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Jun 22nd, '09, 18:25
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by cupioneer » Jun 22nd, '09, 18:25

Because Banko is not confined to one region, which is why it's different. The term Banko can refer to wares made in places that are quite far from each other, whereas in the case of Yixing and Tokoname they shouldn't be.
Really? The vast majority of Banko ware is not made in Mie prefecture? (I don't mean historically, I mean the type that is readily available in the market.)

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Jun 22nd, '09, 23:02
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by Tead Off » Jun 22nd, '09, 23:02

clareandromeda wrote:I do get combative sometimes when I feel it is warranted. If I misinterpreted your tone I am sorry but looking over this thread again I felt like you were "speaking down" to me. If that was unintentional on your part it is something that perhaps you should try to be aware of.
Ok moving on.

Because an internet search on Banko, yields just sites selling Banko teaware I see on yuuki-cha that; "Well known for their temperature retaining iron rich clay, functionality, and for being produced by highly experienced potters."

Hojo refers to Banko as "purple clay"
Ok so...
"Banko" refers to iron content and is "purple" clay. Is Banko just a Japanese term for clay type (purple)?
Maybe you are not reading Hojo's site very carefully and are missing some of the info that is relative your 'search'. From Hojo:

"In Japan, there were 4 major places known for the manufacturing of clay tea pots: Mie Prefecture(Banko Yaki 萬古焼), Gifu (Onko 温故焼), Aichi Prefecture (Tokoname Yaki 常滑焼) and Mumyoi Yaki (無名異焼) These 4 areas were located at the center part of Japan. Geographically, all these 4 areas are located along the Japan Median Tectonic Line (JMTL) and Itoigawa-Shizuoka Tectonic Line (ISTL) which is connecting to JMTL. In the history, these places are known to have very active volvanoes. There is no doubt that these areas produce clay with very high minerals content."

Mie is the place where Banko comes from. This is where they find the clay. Banko production is much, much, smaller than Tokoname. According to a conversation I had with Hojo, he told me that Tokoname clay has other clays mixed in with it. In other words, not pure purple clay (what they call purple clay). He said you would have to find something more than 50 years old to have the good, old, clay in it. He said that Banko clay is still the original, plus, the potters he handles reduce the clay in the kiln so they acheive the color and also the 'activation'. Some banko ware is colored to acheive this look and not reduced.

Either Hojo is a great con man or he is an exceptional seller, taking the time and energy to research what he sells.

To answer another of your questions about molds, the more a mold is used, the less details are transferred to the object being made in it. When you look at a Suzuki tetsubin compared to a Kunzan tetsubin, you will see it immediately. If you are lucky, maybe you can get a Kunzan tetsubin that was made in the first few castings. They are not numbered, though. Most of us can't afford a Suzuki and it is not necessary to buy one to get the same effect on water, but, there is a big difference in quality. That is why I say it would be difficult for me to buy something like this from a photo.

Buying 'antique' is usually a less expensive way to go but you will have to deal with the rust issues that all of them have. Most feel that new is the way to go so you can season it with that good Bronx water that is so famous.

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Jun 23rd, '09, 06:04
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by clareandromeda » Jun 23rd, '09, 06:04

New York City has excellent tap water.

Ok so this is what I have gleaned so far

Tokoname and Yixing are like brand names (sorry MarshalN but your blind criticsm of everything I've had to say, regardless of whether it is right or wrong has leant you little credibility) In that all different kinds of wares a labeled under these catagories. Clay quality and type varies amoung items that are considered "Yixing" and "Tokoname". Sellers and potters label items under such labels hoping to connect their product with the reputation of the "Yixing" or "Tokoname" "brand".
"Banko" is different in that modern banko products are exclusively purple clay.

(Initially Banko was using white or yellow clay. But the white clay was over used and finished. Thus it changed to the existing local clay which is known as Purple Clay (紫泥).
(Hey look I read the Hojo page)

If anyone would like to disagree or add more information I would appreciate that they addressed me in a respectful tone.

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Jun 23rd, '09, 10:59
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by Oni » Jun 23rd, '09, 10:59

Yixing and Tokoname are the name of the pottery region, where many diffrent potters work from a huge diversity of materials, it is a geographical feature that a certain product carries, within these regions are natiaonally certified artists, who can be national treasures of Japan for example or grandmaster in yixing, these places have long history in pottery so they are not like a consumers brand, there are lower quality mass produced items as well made for the inexperienced western customer, but a teadrinker usually refers to the high end handmade stuff.

Yokaichi Banko ceramic, from Mie prefekture: It began 260 years ago, there lived a rich marchant by the name: Nunami Rozan. He was a tea enthusiast, and he gathered tea equipment. The Banko style was invented by him, and he named it from his first creation Banko, because the trademark of these products was the "bankofueki" , which ment eternity, with the thought that his work would last and inspire generation of potters.

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Jun 23rd, '09, 12:12
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by olivierco » Jun 23rd, '09, 12:12

Miracle of Purple Clay Takes Place Not Only in Tea, But Also in Wine and Coffee.
(...)
You may surprise that it is even able to change the taste of red wine. When you pour young red wine into the red clay, it definitely changes the taste of the young red wine into a very smooth and mellow feel. Since then I have enjoyed consuming nice red wine.
This statement alone makes look all the "information" about "miracle effect of purple clay" given by hojotea very questionable to stay polite.
If you need to change the taste of a wine to enjoy it, this wine is a bad quality one (or wine isn't for you).

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by Geekgirl » Jun 23rd, '09, 12:14

hojo may be unaware that decanting wine changes the flavor profile anyways, and may be crediting that change to the banko rather than oxygen.

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Jun 23rd, '09, 12:35
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by Tead Off » Jun 23rd, '09, 12:35

olivierco wrote:
Miracle of Purple Clay Takes Place Not Only in Tea, But Also in Wine and Coffee.
(...)
You may surprise that it is even able to change the taste of red wine. When you pour young red wine into the red clay, it definitely changes the taste of the young red wine into a very smooth and mellow feel. Since then I have enjoyed consuming nice red wine.
This statement alone makes look all the "information" about "miracle effect of purple clay" given by hojotea very questionable to stay polite.
If you need to change the taste of a wine to enjoy it, this wine is a bad quality one (or wine isn't for you).
Haha. Ahh, Olivier, spoken like a true Frenchman! :lol: But doesn't champagne taste better in a fluted glass?

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by Geekgirl » Jun 23rd, '09, 12:43

Tead Off wrote:
Haha. Ahh, Olivier, spoken like a true Frenchman! :lol: But doesn't champagne taste better in a fluted glass?
Well, yes, but it is not the material that makes the difference, but rather the shape, and how it releases the bubbles. (Although super-smooth beaker glass would not provide enough nucleation sites for bubbles to form properly, so you might say the type of glass would be somewhat relevant.) And technically it is not the taste that is impacted, but the aroma, which changes our perception of the taste. Which makes it really not a very good comparison to teapots at all, although maybe it could be a good comparison for teaCUPS?

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Jun 23rd, '09, 12:50
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by Tead Off » Jun 23rd, '09, 12:50

Geek, please. Can't I have some fun? :(

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by Geekgirl » Jun 23rd, '09, 12:54

Tead Off wrote:Geek, please. Can't I have some fun? :(
If you're testing champagne in your flute, and you're not having fun, you must be doing something wrong! :P

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Jun 23rd, '09, 16:55
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by clareandromeda » Jun 23rd, '09, 16:55

Thank you Oni! That was exactly what I was looking for!

Tea and champagne connoisseurs, any other specialties?

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by scruffmcgruff » Jun 23rd, '09, 19:29

Not to fan the flames, but there is such an enormous amount of BS on vendor sites I don't even pay attention anymore. Even if a vendor is being completely honest, it's sort of a truthful white foot/ lying black foot situation unless you have a lot of independent trustworthy sources in agreement. Add to that the likelihood of subtle translation issues (such as the one which has caused bazillions of people to call oolong "blue tea"), typos, and the fact that the vendor is selling something, and it is quite easy to see why there is conflicting information here.

Just pretend the teaware vendors are all clones of the Sham-Wow guy (an ex-Scientologist who recently got caught beating up/getting beaten up by a hooker, by the way), and you won't have any more trouble taking their sales pitches with a grain of salt.

I always just assume that different clays make little to no difference unless I hear otherwise from multiple experienced tea drinkers or I find truth to the claims from my own experience.

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by clareandromeda » Jun 23rd, '09, 19:54

Thanks Mr. McGruff, I agree with you about claims by vendors. The only information I have found regarding clay and tetsubins were on sites selling these items. That was why I started both threads, to see if what they were claiming was "tea gospel" or just propaganda. It seems to me that more of you consider most claims regarding seasoning and iron improved water to be a bit dubious, and if they are true, small factors.

On a silly note I watch Mexican Wrestling (lucha libre) with my boyfriend and the shamwow guy does those commercials in spanish for spanish audiences. His attempt at a spanish accent has given me the giggles everytime I see it.

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