Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

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Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by Zpro » May 30th, '10, 20:00

Hello friends,

As a beginner puerh fanatic, i was wondering if someone could answer/point me in the direction of information (or a previous post...) regarding what kind of fertilizer, insecticides, or whatever is used by the average tea farmer in Yunnan (or China, I guess, must be pretty much the same everywhere...) and how he/she grows his/her plants. I was just wondering if they carry baskets of animal feces up the mountains and smother it all over (like I have read in certain Chinese books as being the worst task on the farm as it seeps out and leaks all over your neck and back... :x , I forget which book that was, hmmmm :? ) not that I am scared of that kind of thing (I know it most likely is something similar to that...) at all if it is that, I LOVE the taste of puerh and know where food and stuff comes from... grew up around farms throughout my youth, but I am just curious... Clearly there is some organic and I know that's a whole other story, i am inquiring more about like the average farmer.
If nobody knows, well thanks for having read all the way to here, and have a nice day anyways :mrgreen:

Zach

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by nonc_ron » May 30th, '10, 22:45

Zpro wrote:Hello friends,

As a beginner puerh fanatic, i was wondering if someone could answer/point me in the direction of information (or a previous post...) regarding what kind of fertilizer, insecticides, or whatever is used by the average tea farmer in Yunnan :mrgreen:
Zach
There are lots of organic teas for sale on EBay. :)

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by silverneedles » May 30th, '10, 23:04

Zpro wrote: feces
nonc_ron wrote: organic
didnt Zpro just say that ?? ;)

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by nonc_ron » May 30th, '10, 23:17

silverneedles wrote: didnt Zpro just say that ?? ;)
Yeeah, But for people that worry about those things.
Organic is the no worry way to go. :D

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by Poohblah » May 30th, '10, 23:23

The problem with organic is that it takes time, effort, and money to get a tea certified organic. Even if a farmer is already using organic practices, he cannot get certification unless he is willing to add that cost to the bottom line, and for many it just isn't worth it.

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by nonc_ron » May 30th, '10, 23:46

Poohblah wrote:The problem with organic is that it takes time, effort, and money.
Yeah lots of Money,
If China is anything like the US it cost a lot of money just to get licenses or
certification, "the right to call it organic".

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by silverneedles » May 31st, '10, 00:00

and as repeatedly pointed out in past discussions here and elsewhere

organic labels can be easily "purchased"
without the product being organic

china & india

organic label = relatively useless

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by Zpro » May 31st, '10, 06:04

AS i said in my OP, I know there is organic teas, I am simply curious as to what is used in non-organic, and no I am not only drinking/going to drink organic tea the other ones are delicious and anyways all foods almost are non-organic, i understand that, i am not worrying at all about organic or non organic...

Zach

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by gingkoseto » May 31st, '10, 11:40

Unfortunately, most people who write about it don't have direct tea cultivation experience (including me). So what I say is only what I heard from farmers and professionals, and it's only one-side story.

From what I've learned, currently the most popular insecticide is pyrethroid type, (which is somewhat similar to household insecticide for mosques and cockroaches), such as valerate and cyhalothrin. They are decomposed relatively faster and when used in small amount, leave relatively smaller amount of residues.

What are not allowed to used for tea include Kalthane and Mathamidophos. Kelthane is widely used in developed nations including US and Canada, for fruits such as apples, peaches and grapes. I did some internet search on Kelthane. Kelthane leaves relatively higher DDT residue than most other legal pesticides. But since it's still allowed in developed nations, I assume all these countries believe the pesticide residue can be minimized through guidelines and regulations. Another example of pesticide not allowed for tea but allowed for other agricultural products is Methamidophos. It was banned on tea, vegetables and fruits in 2001 throughout China (most other countries in the world banned it for fruits and vegetables too). But it is being used for crops in many countries in the world, including developed nations such as US and Canada. In terms of the concerns of Kelthane, Methamidophos and some other highly dangerous pesticide, tea products are no less safe than fruits, vegetables and crops.

Application of fertilizer largely depends on the soil conditions. Many farmers believe it's easier to use organic fertilizer (many of them already use a lot of it because it contributes to tea quality) than using organic pesticide (which is very often unaffordable). But something to notice is, "organic" in farmers' mind is not always consistent with organic regulation. For example, in order to obtain organic certification (national or international), the farmer can only use sterilized (usually by high temperature) feces/urine but not the raw material. Other options (such as composting and buying industrial organic fertilizer) are costly. This makes organic fertilization very expensive too. Unless for certification purpose, people think it's an odd idea to treat feces before applying it. This is one of the many reasons that most Chinese tea farmers are not interested in obtaining organic certification.

As for Yunnan, there are a lot of wild or semi-wild tea trees in Yunnan, and they are pretty much organic. A Taiwan tea professional, Shi Kunmu, once said, "All the tea from Yunnan, as long as not treated artificially, is great tea." But nowadays people want more tea from Yunnan. In order to cultivate more tea, artificial pesticide and fertilizer must be used in a lot of plantations.

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by Zpro » May 31st, '10, 16:52

Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge gingko, I am glad you could answer my question!

Good to see they are limited as to what insecticides are legal for tea use and I am also glad to hear (as I kind of expected...) that wild arbor or semi-wild are left to grow wild... makes sense
Thanks,
Zach

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by gingkoseto » May 31st, '10, 18:40

Zpro wrote:Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge gingko, I am glad you could answer my question!

Good to see they are limited as to what insecticides are legal for tea use and I am also glad to hear (as I kind of expected...) that wild arbor or semi-wild are left to grow wild... makes sense
Thanks,
Zach
I am afraid your question is hard to answer from the beginning :D Still there is problem on how to tell if a tea is wild, semi-wild or not. And from the final product, it may be hard to tell its cultivation history.

Generally, I am not worried about the safety of specialty teas (those sold by pounds, not by tons :P ). But still there is a lot to explore on how to improve the systematic regulation of pesticide and fertilization, and how to make organic cultivation less costly and more profitable.

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by Rithmomachy » Jun 1st, '10, 11:47

My biggest worry would be about highly aged tea. What was being used 20 or 30 years ago?

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by TIM » Jun 1st, '10, 12:36

Rithmomachy wrote:My biggest worry would be about highly aged tea. What was being used 20 or 30 years ago?
I would love to share your worries of those 20 or 30 years old puerh :lol: Please do send them all to me, I will pay for the shipping cost. :wink:

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by silverneedles » Jun 1st, '10, 13:02

lol TIM :)

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Re: Fertilizer/insecticides used...?

by zhi zheng » Jun 2nd, '10, 05:16

The most common chemicals that farmers in the Jinghong area buy are:

Glyphosate
Paraquate
Atrazine
MCPA

These are all herbicides. A local supplier here told me tea farmers recently have been buying Paraquate more than Glyphosate, but a walk round smaller local (bush tea) plantations can reveal Glyphosate bottles that have been tossed aside.

There are two broad assumptions one can make;

1. Farmers of old tea trees probably don't use anything, the trees being old and resilient enough that no agro-chemicals nor fertilizer need to be used. (think 100 to 700 year old trees).

2. Most farmers with bush tea probably do use something - herbicide once a year at the very least. So, unless they are saying their 'bush' Puer is organic, you can probably assume that it's not.

Farmers with either old tea trees or bushes may well be tempted to clear the ground in early spring (January/February) with a herbicide as doing it by hand is fairly labour intensive, but it's easy enough to spot where this has been done.

Also, areas where there are old trees with bush tea nearby are not uncommon, so there is a question of whether or not old trees in the proximity of bushes will also have been affected by the latter's treatment.

The problem then is to ascertain whether the tea is really old tree tea. This is possible where tea has not been mixed, but if tea leaves from old trees and bushes were mixed at the time of picking/wilting it can be rather difficult to tell.

Many people believe that tingling/numbing sensations on the tip of the tongue are a fairly reliable indicator of chemical residues. This may not be failsafe, but it's a useful indicator and, if there are such sensations, one probably wouldn't want to drink the tea anyway.

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