Choosing a 7542

[Tobias]

I was searching on the YS website for a 7542 and I found these:

2008 Menghai Tea Factory * 7542 802 * Raw Pu-erh Tea
2009 Menghai Tea Factory * 7542 901 * Raw Pu-erh Tea cake
2009 Menghai Tea Factory * 7542 Raw Pu-erh Tea cake
2007 Xi-Zhi Hao * Traditional 7542 * Raw Pu-erh Tea cake

Which one would you recommend?

[nickE]

Well, let's look at the differences.

7542 802 - second batch, $16.
7542 901 - first batch, $16.
7542 902 - second batch, $15.
XZH 2007 7542 - $36 (400g).

The first 3 will be pretty similar. First batch is supposedly made with better material, but I doubt I'd be able to tell.

The XZH might be different as it's a remake of 7542 to simulate its former glory. Better material, wild/ancient, etc. I've not tried it.. It is technically not Dayi, however (not a bad thing ).

I'd say it's just personal preference.

[shah82]

The issue with the XZH is that the 2007 C division teas are quite a bit weaker on quality relative to peers while being twice as much. They are more energetic than the normal 7542, but lack endurance or intense taste. The big idea is that $36 is enough to buy cheap puerh at Hou De, which should tell you how over-priced it is.

Personally, I'd get samples in this case, and compare with Douji products that are meant to compare with the basic formulas at the price. Thing is, I did a little mixing of Peacock of Menghai '08 and mixed it with XZH '06 Banzhang brick and found it to be a highly unpleasant mix. The banzhang was still powerful and and the rawness of the peacock added to it, and killed my tummy besides. $16 per 400 gram tea is just not tea worth having in my book. Even for aging purposes, it probably will still not deliver most of the pleasure a decent young Yiwu would provide in time.

I think the days of tonging is over. Most tea that I'd consider age-worthy in the truest sense start in the $30s, and that runs up money like nobody's business.

[nickE]

The issue with the XZH is that the 2007 C division teas are quite a bit weaker on quality relative to peers while being twice as much.

Ah, I've heard that about the cheaper XZH.

If you really like Dayi, then I'd say go for it. But Shah is right in that your money may be better spent on something of better quality (even if you have to pay more for it).

[nicolas]

Which one would you recommend?

None of them.

Drinking very young 7542 is hazardous to human health, and should not be done on a regular basis. Some individuals do it maybe because they don't have access to an experienced tea drinker or teamaster warning them to avoid very young non-organic non-wild plantation bush sheng.

The usual consequence is damage to the stomach lining, which first manifests as a gnawing or burning pain in the abdomen between the breastbone and the navel. The pain is usually worse after the tea drinking session or in the middle of the night when the stomach is empty. If the tea drinker continues to ignore such symptoms, then stomach ulcers will form followed by a trip to the hospital.

At a tea seminar I attended in Hong Kong last week, the tea shop owner told me about a puerh tea death by someone who drank too much young sheng despite doctor's and tea shop owner's advice, because he really loved the taste and feel of young sheng.

[apache]

At a tea seminar I attended in Hong Kong last week, the tea shop owner told me about a puerh tea death by someone who drank too much young sheng despite doctor's and tea shop owner's advice, because he really loved the taste and feel of young sheng.

Sheng Pu'erh death! Now this is serious.

[Marco]

Drinking very young 7542 is hazardous to human health, and should not be done on a regular basis. Some individuals do it maybe because they don't have access to an experienced tea drinker or teamaster warning them to avoid very young non-organic non-wild plantation bush sheng.

Hey Nicolas,
oh so drinking tea can be bad for your health? Never thought about that.
So what do I have to avoid when I choose a Pu Erh?
And what is the border line for ageing if a young sheng can be unhealthy? So when is it not young anymore? 10 years?

thanks
Marco

[bryan_drinks_tea]

well I'm sure plenty of us have had at least some young sheng, so I figure we're all keeping those old cakes around to help pay for our hospital bills.

[nickE]

well I'm sure plenty of us have had at least some young sheng, so I figure we're all keeping those old cakes around to help pay for our hospital bills.

This thread is quite amusing.

[Drax]

At a tea seminar I attended in Hong Kong last week, the tea shop owner told me about a puerh tea death by someone who drank too much young sheng despite doctor's and tea shop owner's advice, because he really loved the taste and feel of young sheng.

I've emphasized something important in the background of this story. So basically somebody who profits by marking up teas 25% every year they age is telling you not to drink the young (i.e. cheap) stuff, and instead buy the old (i.e. PROFIT!!) stuff? Hmmmmmm.....!

Seriously, though, yet again we get into the realm of hearsay. For example, if you consider the % of the world population that drinks pu'erh, and the % of the world population that will die of a stomach problem, there is probably some overlap. Did drinking young pu'erh cause the person to die? Or did the stomach problem cause the person to drink young pu'erh?

Anyway, this is a topic for another thread, methinks. But here are some questions to try and answer to dispel away the evil spirits. I ask these because I would like to know the answer, but as always, until you can, all you have is speculation and hearsay.

1. What are the chemical components of the tea responsible for supposedly wearing away one's stomach lining?

1a. As part of this question, you should be able to answer how these chemicals act to do their damage.

1b. Why are these components so strongly present in pu'erh, but not other teas?

2. How do these stomach-destroying chemicals change over time, and at what rates?

2a. Presumably the process of making shu adequately changes these chemicals as well?

In any case, you may see some similarities to the points I brought up in the taste-testing thread on the differences between young and aged sheng.

Oh! But back to the original question. I think any of those choices would be good ones. I've had the 7532 0801, which was great.

If you'd like to experience what the tea might become in 15 years, you might try some samples from Essence of Tea:

1993 Menghai 7542, at ~$1/g. A hopeful glimpse into the future, and a spectacular cup of tea.

[shah82]

People probably *do* die from drinking too much coffee because the stomach ulcers got infected and which resulted in varied things including heart attacks. Alcohol does the same thing. Ulcers aren't exactly something you play with, even though we joke about them all the time.

[auhckw]

Well, let's look at the differences.

7542 802 - second batch, $16.
7542 901 - first batch, $16.
7542 902 - second batch, $15.
XZH 2007 7542 - $36 (400g).

The first 3 will be pretty similar. First batch is supposedly made with better material, but I doubt I'd be able to tell.

The XZH might be different as it's a remake of 7542 to simulate its former glory. Better material, wild/ancient, etc. I've not tried it.. It is technically not Dayi, however (not a bad thing ).

I'd say it's just personal preference.

If I have to choose 1 from the above, and no sample... I would go for 7542 901 - Reason: Price + First batch + Dayi + Never heard of XZH

[nicolas]

Hey Nicolas,
oh so drinking tea can be bad for your health? Never thought about that.
So what do I have to avoid when I choose a Pu Erh?
And what is the border line for ageing if a young sheng can be unhealthy? So when is it not young anymore? 10 years?

thanks
Marco

The first thing to do is to differentiate between wild and farmed sheng puerh. In the case of wild sheng, e.g. Essence of Tea, Xizhihao etc, the harmful chemicals are contained in much lesser quantities therefore it is okay to drink young wild sheng but again in moderation.

In the case of farmed sheng (e.g. Dayi, Mengku), almost all mainland chinese (apart from dealers) avoid regularly drinking sheng which is less than three years old. i.e. 2007-2010 vintages. The primary reason is because it takes time for the chemicals, artificial fertilisers and pesticides to weaken.

Anything between 3 to 10 years old, it depends on the drinkers preference.

Anything above 10 years old is okay.

However the connoisseurs I have met do not touch any sheng puerh that is less than 20 years old. The vast majority of HK people drink ripe puerh.

We may buy young farmed sheng to store for consumption later. But this practice of drinking young farmed sheng should be regulated. Stick to green tea or oolongs instead and protect your body.

[nicolas]

1. What are the chemical components of the tea responsible for supposedly wearing away one's stomach lining?

Phenolic acid, flavonoids, organic acids and esters, catechins, caffeine and o-methylated compounds.
References:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf800986s
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0718603
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0507442
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf9807768

1a. As part of this question, you should be able to answer how these chemicals act to do their damage.

I don't think I need to explain how acids can harm the body but let me know if we need to go through that exercise. However I came across this article while doing my research:

"Low toxicities of Pu-erh green tea extract (GTE) were observed at doses of 2500 and 5000 mg/kg/day with a 28-day subacute study. Serum biochemical data including alanine aminotransferase increased to 5000 mg/kg/day GTE males, and creatinine (Cr) increased in all 5000 mg/kg/day GTE groups and 2500 mg/kg/day GTE males. Slight bile duct hyperplasia in the liver was also observed. The target organs of GTE were considered to be the liver and kidney."
Source: Comparative Safety Evaluation of Chinese Pu-erh Green Tea Extract and Pu-erh Black Tea Extract in Wistar Rats, J. Agric. Food Chem., 2010, 58 (2), pp 1350–1358
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf902171h

1b. Why are these components so strongly present in pu'erh, but not other teas?

There are two reasons for this.

The first reason is because puerh tea trees/bushes originate from a different strain than other teas (which are usually cultivated strains).

The second reason is because other teas have been fermented or partially fermented by heat (e.g. oolongs, black) thus converting or neutralizing these chemicals. Puerh is not properly fermented before it is pressed into cakes. Although green tea is also not fermented but the leaves are of a weaker strain than puerh, which means that while it's not as harsh on the body after it's been freshly produced, it will also not keep its "energy" over years or decades and are not suitable for storing.

"The nitric oxide suppressing effect of tea extracts was in the order pu-erh tea ≥ black tea > green tea > oolong tea."
Source: Factors Affecting the Levels of Tea Polyphenols and Caffeine in Tea Leaves, J. Agric. Food Chem., 2003, 51 (7), pp 1864–1873
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0 ... istoryKey=

2. How do these stomach-destroying chemicals change over time, and at what rates?

Over time, these chemicals are broken down through the process of natural fermentation.

"The raw pu-erh teas showed significantly higher antioxidant activities than the ripened pu-erh teas in the 1,1-diphenyl-2-picrylhydrazyl, Trolox equivalent antioxidant capacity, and ferric reducing antioxidant power assays.... Significant correlations between compounds and postfermentation year were observed in raw pu-erh teas; epigallocatechin-3-gallate, epigallocatechin, epicatechin-3-gallate, and quinic acid were decreased and gallic acid was increased in a year-dependent manner."
Source: Application of Metabolomics in the Analysis of Manufacturing Type of Pu-erh Tea and Composition Changes with Different Postfermentation Year, J. Agric. Food Chem., 2010, 58 (1), pp 345–352
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf902818c

"The young leaves were found to be richer in the O-methylated compounds than old leaves and the amount of O-methylated EGCG was higher in unfermented longjin green tea than in semifermented oolong tea. However, the fermented black tea and puerh tea did not contain these compounds."
Source: HPLC Analysis of Naturally Occurring Methylated Catechins, 3‘ ‘- and 4‘ ‘-Methyl-epigallocatechin Gallate, in Various Fresh Tea Leaves and Commercial Teas and Their Potent Inhibitory Effects on Inducible Nitric Oxide Synthase in Macrophages, J. Agric. Food Chem., 2005, 53 (18), pp 7035–7042
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0507442

"As Pu-erh tea ages, a number of components such as catechins, theaflavin, thearubigin, theanine, soluble sugars and caffeine greatly decrease, while the theabrownin and epicatechin contents increase."
Source: http://www.ncresearchcampus.net/univers ... astory.pdf

"Results showed that different teas had widely different in vitro antioxidant power and that the antioxidant capacity was strongly correlated (r = 0.956) with the total phenolics content of the tea. Expressed as μmol of antioxidant power/g of dried tea leaves, values ranged as 132−654 μmol/g for black (“fermented”) teas, 233−532 μmol/g for Oolong (“semifermented”) teas, and 272−1144 μmol/g for green (“nonfermented”) teas."
Source: Total Antioxidant Capacity of Teas by the Ferric Reducing/Antioxidant Power Assay, J. Agric. Food Chem., 1999, 47 (2), pp 633–636
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf9807768

Although theanine is not one of the harmful chemicals, researchers concluded that "the raw (natural fermented) Pu-erh tea contained more theanine than ripe (wet fermented) Pu-erh tea".
Source: Determination of Theanine, GABA, and Other Amino Acids in Green, Oolong, Black, and Pu-erh Teas with Dabsylation and High-Performance Liquid Chromatography, J. Agric. Food Chem., 2008, 56 (17), pp 7637–7643
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf801795m

2a. Presumably the process of making shu adequately changes these chemicals as well?

That's right. We tend to say that shu is artificially fermented because the fermentation process is accelerated over a 3 month period by creating certain factory conditions. We also like to pursue aged sheng or good shu because they contain more health benefits.

"Pu-erh raw tea was stronger than the ripe one, and the activity decreased with the increase of preservation period."
Source: Identification and Quantification of Free Radical Scavengers in Pu-erh Tea by HPLC-DAD-MS Coupled Online with 2,2′-Azinobis(3-ethylbenzthiazolinesulfonic acid) Diammonium Salt Assay, J. Agric. Food Chem., 2008, 56 (23), pp 11187–11191
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf8025716

"It seemed that the fully fermented pu-erh and black tea leaves and partially fermented oolong tea leaves were more effective on their growth suppressive and hypolipidemic effects as compared to the nonfermented green tea leaves. "
Source: Comparative Studies on the Hypolipidemic and Growth Suppressive Effects of Oolong, Black, Pu-erh, and Green Tea Leaves in Rats, J. Agric. Food Chem., 2005, 53 (2), pp 480–489
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf049375k

[Drax]

Awesome!! Nicolas, thank you so much for a thorough response with sources.

I'm looking forward to learning what these researchers have discovered about tea. A couple of the studies you summarize already have me a little nervous on misapplication, but I will hold that until I read it in full.

Thanks again!