Porosity of modern vs pre-60s Yixing

[bagua7]

I would like to hear your experiences with this regard as I would like to own pre-60s stuff (not cheap & not easy) eventually.

Cheers.

[tingjunkie]

I'm no expert on pre-1960's stuff, but I would guess the porosity would depend on the clay type and level of firing. I don't think you can make generalizations across an entire decade of pots.

Here is an article which mentions one person's theory on clay particle size, which would also effect the porosity: http://ezinearticles.com/?Antique-Yixin ... id=2295015 Keep in mind, the author mentions particle size being larger in the mid-Qing and before, and makes no mention of the first half of the 20th century, so who knows...

"In teapots, there is old clay available because, for example, teapot artist families have been buying clay from Yixing mines for many, many years and have passed some of it down through the generations. However, one of the real differences for older clay and older teapots is that the particle size of the rock powder making up the clay was about twice as large, in the mid-Qing Dynasty, about three times as large in the early Qing Dynasty, and about five times as large, in the Ming period. Thus, at least you should expect teapots to appear rougher, the further back you go, although that same sort of roughness can be seen even with more recent clays."

Also, Billy Moods writes about the subject of particle size in his much quoted article here: http://www.terebess.hu/english/yixing1a.html Look for the section called THE ZISHA PARTICLES.

"Basically, there are 2 methods of processing the zisha clay; manual and machine. From the Ming Dyansty till recent "Mingguo" or Republic period (1600s to 1930) processing of zisha clay have been a manual process, which uses human power on timber tools to crush the clay. From 1931 onwards, the crushing tools were changed to a stone turn-stile push/pull by an ox. After 1958, machines were introduced and the particle size at this period were 0.3m/m. From 1959, new technology in the form of machines with the capability of crushing the clay to less than 0.15m/m were used. Such machines allow the input of raw clay at one end and output processed clay at the other end."

[bagua7]

Good stuff Tingjunk. I am going to post a pic of an early 1800s teapot owned by a HKnese Yixing collector I know of. he told me that pot is worth a fortune and he wouldn't use anything else to brew his +40 plus puerhs. I haven't had the opportunity to taste tea in such old vessel but only can imagine what an amazing experience must be like.

Anyhow, it is a very risky business as the antique market is flooded with fakes. Old pots retain so much better the flavour of the tea that it does really make a difference, plus the energetics associated with old stuff. New pots are like wild puppies, you can't really enjoy old pu erh in them as their energy level is too high.

Regards.

[tingjunkie]

Well, to each their own.

Personally, when I have some very nice aged puerh, I usually use my $18 gaiwan. Porcelain is a truly neutral vessel which neither aids, nor hinders a tea- it just reveals what the leaf has to offer all by itself. I'd rather know that I was affording myself all the subtle nuances and flavors that a well aged puerh has to offer, rather than worrying if my porous yixing pot was eating up and rounding off some of the high notes. But then again, I can see the perspective of those who feel an old pot is giving them the ultimate experience.

Another thing to consider about pre-1960's pots is that most of them were fired in dragon kilns as opposed to modern electric kilns. No idea how that affects porosity (if at all), but it's something you can look into.

[bagua7]

Certainly the gaiwan is the way to go or even a glass teapot, but there is something romantic to Yixing or any other clay pot (plus energetics Fire generates Earth) that the former are lacking.

Care to give a brief info about "dragon kilns" to enlighten the topic?

[tingjunkie]

No, but I can link to Wikipedia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anagama_kiln

[Tead Off]

Well, to each their own.

Personally, when I have some very nice aged puerh, I usually use my $18 gaiwan. Porcelain is a truly neutral vessel which neither aids, nor hinders a tea- it just reveals what the leaf has to offer all by itself. I'd rather know that I was affording myself all the subtle nuances and flavors that a well aged puerh has to offer, rather than worrying if my porous yixing pot was eating up and rounding off some of the high notes. But then again, I can see the perspective of those who feel an old pot is giving them the ultimate experience.

Another thing to consider about pre-1960's pots is that most of them were fired in dragon kilns as opposed to modern electric kilns. No idea how that affects porosity (if at all), but it's something you can look into.

Aside from all theories and analysis, do you really prefer gaiwan to yixing when drinking puerh? For me, the difference is not marginal, it is huge. I can see people preferring light, floral teas in a gaiwan, but, Puerh, roasted oolongs, yes, even Taiwan teas, I don't feel like I'm getting all that is in the tea with the gaiwan. You call it adding to the flavor. I call it bringing it out. Of course, each is entitled to one's preference. But, not all yixing pots are equal. Not all teas are equal. Not all tasters are equal. So many variables. Neutrality? I don't think this exists. It is a concept. Everything affects everything.

[tingjunkie]

Aside from all theories and analysis, do you really prefer gaiwan to yixing when drinking puerh? ... But, not all yixing pots are equal. Not all teas are equal. Not all tasters are equal. So many variables. Neutrality? I don't think this exists. It is a concept. Everything affects everything.

...not all water is equal, not all tea storage conditions are equal, not all weather is equal from day to day, not all kettles are equal, not all methods of pouring the water are equal. We can wax as philosophical as you want about "neutrality" and cause and effect, but the simple fact remains that glazed porcelain is more neutral than any Yixing teapot out there. That's why every tea competition in the world, and every serious tea merchant/buyer uses it to evaluate teas.

But, yes, we do differ on this point. I personally prefer my gaiwan for tasting a well aged puerh. In my mind, a Yixing pot is like a filter on a camera lens- there may be plenty of situations where adding a filter could make for a more interesting photo, but you are intentionally choosing to alter the subject matter. With top shelf teas, I like to experience them in their rawest form (as much as I can while only adjusting leaf amounts and infusion times), before choosing to alter them with a pot.

I do own a Yixing pot which I have dedicated to aged sheng, but it gets used most often when I have more than a sample of a particular tea to prepare. I will use my gaiwan first to try and note all of the subtle flavors and aromas in the tea, as well as the tea's natural mouthfeel. 95% of the time, I will get more subtleties from a tea (any tea, not just puerh) with a gaiwan, than using a well paired Yixing pot. If I have more than a sample of aged sheng, I then might use my pot to prepare the tea if a) I want to round out any wet storage, or other off storage tastes, b) I want to see if more heat will bring more/different notes out of the tea, or c) I'm just in the mood to use the pot instead of the gaiwan (usually out of laziness, or it might just feel right.)

Don't get me wrong, I love Yixing for it's ability to minimize flaws, smooth out rough edges, prolong a tea's finish, improve the mouthfeel, or increase the temperature of the infusion, and perhaps get stronger flavors as a result, but when it comes to really getting to experience a tea in the most direct way possible, I have to choose a gaiwan.

Perhaps flavor and aroma subtleties aren't what you look for in an aged puerh, or perhaps you are willing to trade the highest 5% of flavor/aroma notes for improved mouthfeel or smoothed edges. Its all about preferences, and that's what makes different artists, different chefs, different authors, and different tea lovers.

Out of curiosity Tead Off, what do you feel is added by using a Yixing pot for aged sheng, and what do you feel might be lost in the process?

[Tead Off]

Out of curiosity Tead Off, what do you feel is added by using a Yixing pot for aged sheng, and what do you feel might be lost in the process?

Fullness of flavor, primarily the deeper flavors of a tea. More complex taste. I never use yixing to mask or alter a tea. I never think like that. Maybe I 'grew up' using yixing and it became part of my daily preparation. But, after visiting Hojo's shop and taste testing teas in various vessels, the point of yixing was driven home to me in a very practical demonstration. Many teas simply taste better to me brewed in them. It's the same thing if I take Japanese green tea and taste test porcelain vs Banko/Tokoname kyusu. I prefer the flavor of the clay over a gaiwan. As I said, I use a gaiwan for lighter teas where the aroma can easily be smelled off the lid and when I want to be fast or drinking alone.

It makes sense to use porcelain in competitions because they are a lot cheaper and can be replaced quite easily. No one is going to put out yixing teapots (even commercial quality) and risk breakage. The tasting set is standardized and very practical.

Good tea is good tea whether a gaiwan or yixing is used. I just try to go by what my taste and nose is telling me.

[entropyembrace]

Also, Billy Moods writes about the subject of particle size in his much quoted article here: http://www.terebess.hu/english/yixing1a.html Look for the section called THE ZISHA PARTICLES.

"Basically, there are 2 methods of processing the zisha clay; manual and machine. From the Ming Dyansty till recent "Mingguo" or Republic period (1600s to 1930) processing of zisha clay have been a manual process, which uses human power on timber tools to crush the clay. From 1931 onwards, the crushing tools were changed to a stone turn-stile push/pull by an ox. After 1958, machines were introduced and the particle size at this period were 0.3m/m. From 1959, new technology in the form of machines with the capability of crushing the clay to less than 0.15m/m were used. Such machines allow the input of raw clay at one end and output processed clay at the other end."

btw...it´s completely possible to make machine processed clays which have large particles in them. They´re easy to find at pottery supply stores. So it´s a conscious decision the newer generation of yixing potters are making to use clay with finer particles.

[tingjunkie]

btw...it´s completely possible to make machine processed clays which have large particles in them. They´re easy to find at pottery supply stores. So it´s a conscious decision the newer generation of yixing potters are making to use clay with finer particles.

Good point. I often see modern purple clay with larger particles of yellow clay, or various types of sands mixed in as well. I would guess modern pots probably cover a range of different particle sizes. Aside from those with stocks of older clay, I wonder if any Yixing artists still manually grind and process their own clays in the traditional way? Or if anyone still fires their pots in dragon kilns?

[bagua7]

...btw...it´s completely possible to make machine processed clays which have large particles in them. They´re easy to find at pottery supply stores. So it´s a conscious decision the newer generation of yixing potters are making to use clay with finer particles.

Do you reckon this decision is driven by economic reasons? I wish they would stick to the traditional way instead.

Tingjunk, reading the link you provided written by Bill Mood:

"the last Dragon kiln in Yixing ceases fire in the 1960s and was replaced with electric kiln and tunnel kiln which uses coal and petrol as fuel."

http://www.terebess.hu/english/yixing1a.html

[tingjunkie]

I'm sure dragon kilns are largely out of service, but I'd bet somewhere out there there's one or two in operation. I know that similar kilns are still being used in Japan. The cost and labor of using one must be very prohibitive when compared to electric/gas kilns, but we all know how obsessed people are with tradition.

[chrl42]

Dragon kiln is still being used today, most of them make Yao Bian (kiln-color-changed) pots.

Every Yixing clays has appropriate temperature for each, approriate method of firing for each and kilns.

Pros and cons, Dragon kiln's not good at controlling temperature, so fired pots have a dull sound and color gets darken.

During 7~90's Factory-1 used heavy-oil tunnel kiln, which is praised the best color and porosity for zisha, was a huge kiln, was possible under goverment's share, today condition can't afford it.

Delicate clays like Zhuni, electronic kiln is useful which has a sanitized envorionment and precise temperature.

The more and more I like zisha, the more I realize the importance of firing and temperature..

[Hot Tea]

There is one dragon kiln in Singapore that is still being used...the latest firing was in June this year. It went on for 33 hours!

Great pics and write up (June 1 and 10 entries) on this link.

http://thowkwangclayartists.wordpress.com/

Enjoy!