"Genuine" Kichizaemon-line Raku Ware??

[rhythmaning]

Hello All,
I am a new member and new to the world of Japanese tea and pottery. I have been looking for my first Raku Chawan, and am confused by the offerings I see on ebay. Specifically, many of the chawan listed claim to be made by a Kichizaemon family-line potter, and stamped accordingly. BUT, based on my scant knowledge thus far, I was under the impression that such pottery was exceedingly rare and expensive, and that counterfeits (both new and old) abound. Yet many of these supposed "genuine" Kichizaemon Raku often sell (on ebay, at least) for as low as $50- $200. So what's the deal? Are most of these fakes?
Thank you very much for your time and advice. Any replies are much appreciated.
Gary

[MarshalN]

Does it come with a box? Is it damaged? Is it signed, if there's a box, or merely stamped? All those things affect the price. Also, different generation kichizaemon command different kind of prices. Some of the late Tokugawa/early Meiji ones are relatively cheap, from what I understand, because they basically mass produced while the going was tough.

[JBaymore]

What's that famous saying..... "You get what you pay for".

And that other one....... "If it seems too good to be true... it is".

If you really CARE if they are real... then you should likely be buying from a reputable dealer like Trocedero......not on EBay. EBay is for those that KNOW the kind of work that they are buying and can spot the fakes and such. And even then.... sometimes get fooled.

There are fakes on display in museums.

And you must have the box. 50% of the value is instantly lost without the SIGNED box. And not just any box, the specific box that was made to document the exact piece.

If you don't need it to be "real" than if the piece "floats your boat" aesthetically you have lost nothing if you get it at a good price.

The truly good pieces typically require "mortgages" .

best,

................john

[Chip]

+1 on both replies. there are some real eye-rollers on ebay. If it was not so costly and serious in nature, it could be laughable.

More than one seller has been know to forge sigs on boxes. TCers have at times been instrumental in combatting this and even closed one seller down. Properly utilized negative feedback can be pretty powerful.

[MarshalN]

]".

If you really CARE if they are real... then you should likely be buying from a reputable dealer like Trocedero......not on EBay. EBay is for those that KNOW the kind of work that they are buying and can spot the fakes and such. And even then.... sometimes get fooled.

FWIW, Trocadero has questionable items too... at least I've seen some that I go "huh, really?" before.

[rhythmaning]

What's that famous saying..... "You get what you pay for".

And that other one....... "If it seems too good to be true... it is".

If you really CARE if they are real... then you should likely be buying from a reputable dealer like Trocedero......not on EBay. EBay is for those that KNOW the kind of work that they are buying and can spot the fakes and such. And even then.... sometimes get fooled.

There are fakes on display in museums.

And you must have the box. 50% of the value is instantly lost without the SIGNED box. And not just any box, the specific box that was made to document the exact piece.

If you don't need it to be "real" than if the piece "floats your boat" aesthetically you have lost nothing if you get it at a good price.

The truly good pieces typically require "mortgages" .

best,

................john

Thank you for your response, John. I guess that's the age old question when it comes to art, right? If it's indistinguishable from a Rembrandt, does it matter that it's NOT a Rembrandt? (....especially if it's hanging in a museum somewhere, which it may well be. )

Generally speaking, whether a piece is authentic or not is less of a concern to me than its aesthetic appeal....generally speaking. That being said, of course knowing that a piece is "authentic" WOULD add a whole new level of historical/cultural appreciation. And I suppose it's all about adding layer upon layer of appreciation onto the unadorned act of having a simple cup of tea, right?

To my untrained eye (and meager financial resources), a beautiful Raku bowl IS exactly that, regardless of who made it. I guess my minimum requirement would be that it originates from a regional kiln and is truly representative of the "school." I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve here.

Thanks again,
Gary

[rhythmaning]

Does it come with a box? Is it damaged? Is it signed, if there's a box, or merely stamped? All those things affect the price. Also, different generation kichizaemon command different kind of prices. Some of the late Tokugawa/early Meiji ones are relatively cheap, from what I understand, because they basically mass produced while the going was tough.

Thank you for your response, Marshal. All things being equal (i.e., box/damage/signature/stamp), I guess that's the key question: what kind of price might a relatively cheap Meiji command? $50? $500? $5,000?

Best,
Gary

[rhythmaning]

+1 on both replies. there are some real eye-rollers on ebay. If it was not so costly and serious in nature, it could be laughable.

More than one seller has been know to forge sigs on boxes. TCers have at times been instrumental in combatting this and even closed one seller down. Properly utilized negative feedback can be pretty powerful.

Thank you for your response, Chip. Now you're scaring me! I've thus far made ebay-buys from "Fujiyama Gallery," and, "Japanese Antique Katsuragi," and, "Magokorodo." Do any of these dealers set off alarm bells in your experience?

Best,
Gary

[Drax]

+1 on both replies. there are some real eye-rollers on ebay. If it was not so costly and serious in nature, it could be laughable.

More than one seller has been know to forge sigs on boxes. TCers have at times been instrumental in combatting this and even closed one seller down. Properly utilized negative feedback can be pretty powerful.

Thank you for your response, Chip. Now you're scaring me! I've thus far made ebay-buys from "Fujiyama Gallery," and, "Japanese Antique Katsuragi," and, "Magokorodo." Do any of these dealers set off alarm bells in your experience?

Best,
Gary

Magokorodo is a very reputable vendor. He sells almost solely modern/new items, usually gotten from the makers themselves (I think), so you're very safe there. He sells everything w/ a box, certificate, etc.

Fujiyama gallery appears to sell a mix of new and older items. The newer items appear to be legit, but I have not purchased any of those to verify.

We've had plenty of discussions on Katsuragi, who is probably the one most worthy of the "buyer beware" phrase. Katsuragi deals mainly in older items, and certainly offers a very wide variety of types and styles. With this vendor, I would recommend buying because you like the look and style of the item, not because you think it's what it says it is. But that's just my take (I've bought plenty of items from this vendor... all for the look of the item, not its purported name/origin).

I'm sure others will chime in...!

[JBaymore]

I've bought a couple of pieces from Katsuragi........ but then I know pretty much what I am looking at if it is something that I think is what it says it is. And it is not usually for "historical" value but like what Chip is talking about.

Once I got one he didn't know what he had .

best,

..............john

[rhythmaning]

+1 on both replies. there are some real eye-rollers on ebay. If it was not so costly and serious in nature, it could be laughable.

More than one seller has been know to forge sigs on boxes. TCers have at times been instrumental in combatting this and even closed one seller down. Properly utilized negative feedback can be pretty powerful.

Thank you for your response, Chip. Now you're scaring me! I've thus far made ebay-buys from "Fujiyama Gallery," and, "Japanese Antique Katsuragi," and, "Magokorodo." Do any of these dealers set off alarm bells in your experience?

Best,
Gary

Magokorodo is a very reputable vendor. He sells almost solely modern/new items, usually gotten from the makers themselves (I think), so you're very safe there. He sells everything w/ a box, certificate, etc.

Fujiyama gallery appears to sell a mix of new and older items. The newer items appear to be legit, but I have not purchased any of those to verify.

We've had plenty of discussions on Katsuragi, who is probably the one most worthy of the "buyer beware" phrase. Katsuragi deals mainly in older items, and certainly offers a very wide variety of types and styles. With this vendor, I would recommend buying because you like the look and style of the item, not because you think it's what it says it is. But that's just my take (I've bought plenty of items from this vendor... all for the look of the item, not its purported name/origin).

I'm sure others will chime in...!

Thank you, Chip! That's a relief...
Gary

[rhythmaning]

I've bought a couple of pieces from Katsuragi........ but then I know pretty much what I am looking at if it is something that I think is what it says it is. And it is not usually for "historical" value but like what Chip is talking about.

Once I got one he didn't know what he had .

best,

..............john

Thank you, John!

[Chip]

+1 on both replies. there are some real eye-rollers on ebay. If it was not so costly and serious in nature, it could be laughable.

More than one seller has been know to forge sigs on boxes. TCers have at times been instrumental in combatting this and even closed one seller down. Properly utilized negative feedback can be pretty powerful.

Thank you for your response, Chip. Now you're scaring me! I've thus far made ebay-buys from "Fujiyama Gallery," and, "Japanese Antique Katsuragi," and, "Magokorodo." Do any of these dealers set off alarm bells in your experience?

Best,
Gary

Magokorodo is a very reputable vendor. He sells almost solely modern/new items, usually gotten from the makers themselves (I think), so you're very safe there. He sells everything w/ a box, certificate, etc.

Fujiyama gallery appears to sell a mix of new and older items. The newer items appear to be legit, but I have not purchased any of those to verify.

We've had plenty of discussions on Katsuragi, who is probably the one most worthy of the "buyer beware" phrase. Katsuragi deals mainly in older items, and certainly offers a very wide variety of types and styles. With this vendor, I would recommend buying because you like the look and style of the item, not because you think it's what it says it is. But that's just my take (I've bought plenty of items from this vendor... all for the look of the item, not its purported name/origin).

I'm sure others will chime in...!

Thank you, Chip! That's a relief...
Gary

Well, actually that was Drax's post. However I would pretty much agree.

Mago is all new stuff and he does indeed deal direct with the artisans versus picking from a catalog, etc. As a result, we have been fortunate to conduct 18 Hagi Special Offers of pieces made for us by artisans.

Fujiyama is more about price for his new stuff. He will be cheaper than Mago more times than not ... but it is not apples to apples.

Their "vintage" wares are interesting enough to keep on my watch.

And Kats is certainly a very successful dealer though I do not pay very much attention to advertised ages, etc. If I see something I like, want, I may bid on it.

Speaking of the last 2, there is currently a big time buyer that you are competing against ... well actually two. You never know how interested they are, but they will often bid immediately upon listing which is an odd bidding technique. Then you never know how serious either one is. They may run the price up or not bid again.

For a while I thought maybe they were "plants," but it was suggested the one might be a Chinese buyer. Apparently Japanese Vintage pieces can sell pretty high in China.

Anyway ... I seem to share similar tastes with them, unfortunately.

[rhythmaning]

+1 on both replies. there are some real eye-rollers on ebay. If it was not so costly and serious in nature, it could be laughable.

More than one seller has been know to forge sigs on boxes. TCers have at times been instrumental in combatting this and even closed one seller down. Properly utilized negative feedback can be pretty powerful.

Thank you for your response, Chip. Now you're scaring me! I've thus far made ebay-buys from "Fujiyama Gallery," and, "Japanese Antique Katsuragi," and, "Magokorodo." Do any of these dealers set off alarm bells in your experience?

Best,
Gary

Magokorodo is a very reputable vendor. He sells almost solely modern/new items, usually gotten from the makers themselves (I think), so you're very safe there. He sells everything w/ a box, certificate, etc.

Fujiyama gallery appears to sell a mix of new and older items. The newer items appear to be legit, but I have not purchased any of those to verify.

We've had plenty of discussions on Katsuragi, who is probably the one most worthy of the "buyer beware" phrase. Katsuragi deals mainly in older items, and certainly offers a very wide variety of types and styles. With this vendor, I would recommend buying because you like the look and style of the item, not because you think it's what it says it is. But that's just my take (I've bought plenty of items from this vendor... all for the look of the item, not its purported name/origin).

I'm sure others will chime in...!

Thank you, Chip! That's a relief...
Gary

Well, actually that was Drax's post. However I would pretty much agree.

Mago is all new stuff and he does indeed deal direct with the artisans versus picking from a catalog, etc. As a result, we have been fortunate to conduct 18 Hagi Special Offers of pieces made for us by artisans.

Fujiyama is more about price for his new stuff. He will be cheaper than Mago more times than not ... but it is not apples to apples.

Their "vintage" wares are interesting enough to keep on my watch.

And Kats is certainly a very successful dealer though I do not pay very much attention to advertised ages, etc. If I see something I like, want, I may bid on it.

Speaking of the last 2, there is currently a big time buyer that you are competing against ... well actually two. You never know how interested they are, but they will often bid immediately upon listing which is an odd bidding technique. Then you never know how serious either one is. They may run the price up or not bid again.

For a while I thought maybe they were "plants," but it was suggested the one might be a Chinese buyer. Apparently Japanese Vintage pieces can sell pretty high in China.

Anyway ... I seem to share similar tastes with them, unfortunately.

My apologies folks, I'm also pretty new to this blogging venue, so I may mix up my dialogue boxes occasionally.

Thank you so much for all the great info, and for taking the time to respond. It is very helpful to me, and great fun to chat about these things.

I have noticed these things you speak of regarding Mago's offerings/prices vs. Fuji's. I ALSO noticed, on a bowl I recently won, that someone DID run the bidding way up above what I was expecting (based upon the average costs in previous listings, that is.) Then, looking more carefully at the bidding histories across the site, I did notice some erratic bidding that seemed hit-or-miss. Very interesting indeed.

What are some of the other popular sources for pottery among you folks (if that isn't too indiscrete a question, that is? )

Best,
Gary

[MarshalN]

I think most of the time the so called erratic bidding is actually just people not bidding optimally. There are a surprising number of people who bid in weird ways, believe it or not, and also paying through the roof for run of the mill items. It happens, and is most likely not fraud.

Chinese buyers have indeed been on the prowl. This might be another explaination - some of the eBay bidders are actually agents/proxies for Chinese buyers, so since they can't bid in real time, they enter bids early. They also drive prices up because there's a real demand for old teaware in China.