discernable diff between cheap bag tea and the good stuff?

[Sydney]

OK, gang, I'm not going to be reading replies to this thread. Here's your chance to help in a meaningful experiment.

(9:18:41 AM) Rob: the difference between real jasmine tea and the stuff they call jasmine tea at Chinese restaurants is similar to the difference between a real woman and an aged photocopy
(9:19:20 AM) Aaron: I'd like to put that one to a test actually.
(9:19:34 AM) Aaron: Meaning, I'd like a double blind experiment to see if you can tell the expensive stuff from the cheap stuff.
(9:19:38 AM) Rob: you provide the women, and I'll provide the tea
(9:20:11 AM) Rob: OK, I'm down with that.
(9:20:56 AM) Rob: I'll order "real" jasmine tea samples from a few reputable suppliers and show you how they're properly prepared.
(9:21:22 AM) Aaron: Not "show", written instructions. If it's a valid experiment I have to be consistent and document it.
(9:22:46 AM) Aaron: This same experiment when done with food basically tricked everybody, thus part of my interest in trying it with tea. It was discovered that a lot of our perceptions about things of a subjective nature are as much psychological as sensory.
(9:22:47 AM) Rob: The "show" part is because I don't want someone clumsily breaking my gaiwan. heh
(9:23:13 AM) Rob: But the written instructions part is not a problem.
(9:23:38 AM) Aaron: As long as it's consistently prepared that's good enough. It's not important that I prepare the most perfect tea, it is only important that I prepare it consistently in all cases. If one tea is really better than another you should be able to tell the difference in either case.
(9:24:19 AM) Rob: Well, the real stuff does have to be prepared correctly. There is such a thing as right/wrong prep.
(9:24:47 AM) Aaron: Experiment number two then...can you tell the difference?
(9:25:02 AM) Rob: What's experiment number one?
(9:25:37 AM) Aaron: what we were just discussing, can you tell if one tea is better than another. This requires consistent preparatino methods. The next experiment would be whether or not you can tell if the tea you are drinking was prepared by the optimum method.
(9:26:08 AM) Rob: oh, you meant the difference between right/wrong brewing
(9:27:02 AM) Aaron: Yeah. My current hypothesis is that about 75% of the experience is all internal and has nothing to do with the tea itself. Experiments such as those will prove or disprove it quickly.
(9:27:07 AM) Rob: yeah, that's also something I can write out in sufficient detail as to provide test-worthy criteria.
(9:29:56 AM) Aaron: I actually don't want you to know anything about the criteria....you need to be the perfect subject since I only have one.
(9:30:22 AM) Rob: You asked me for the instructions in writing a few minutes ago.
(9:30:40 AM) Aaron: Oh, for preparing the tea, yes. Not the actual controls and variables in the experiment itself though.
(9:31:49 AM) Aaron: I should actually make my original hypothesis more specific though. I predict that in cases whether the quality of the teas being compared falls under a certain threshold, you won't be able to tell the difference. The greater the difference in quality, i.e. old grocery store tea versus freash loose leaf, the greater the chance you will make an accurate comparison.
(9:31:54 AM) Aaron: where, not whether...doh
(9:32:31 AM) Rob: Actual oolong scented with jasmine flowers:

temp:
too high
too low
correct

time:
too brief
too lengthy
correct

whether or not the gaiwan was preheated

(9:33:31 AM) Aaron: We're going to have to try some teas you can actually buy off the shelf in any store too, otherwise the comparisons won't be valid.
(9:34:10 AM) Rob: My original comment was about Chinese restaurant jasmine tea, but other comparisons are welcome, as well.
(9:36:11 AM) Aaron: Yeah, the experiment needs to include several types of teas though. That way there is enough data to determine whether you can actually tell them apart consistently, or if you just have a good taste for jasmine in particular for instance.
(9:36:45 AM) Aaron: That could further be subdivided into teas with which you are familiar and those with which you are not, but I think for now just those with which you are familiar should suffice.
(9:37:37 AM) Rob: There are really only so many general types of tea available, in a general sense.
(9:37:44 AM) Rob: Even fewer available in the grocery store.
(9:38:15 AM) Rob: So the experiment should be easy enough to manage with some careful planning.
(9:38:25 AM) Aaron: I probably saw at least 10 different varieties in the Kroger last night. Five would be enough for this.
(9:39:16 AM) Rob: Of those 10, I wonder how many are "tea" vs "tisane".
(9:40:18 AM) Rob: In the tea world, there's: black, oolong, green, yellow, white, an puerh.
(9:40:34 AM) Rob: jasmine is under the oolong category, as a rule
(9:40:53 AM) Rob: puerh, white, and yellow are unlikely to be found in the grocery store
(9:41:18 AM) Aaron: The most important thing is to have a valid comparison. Green vs. green, yellow vs. yellow, etc.
(9:41:46 AM) Rob: A well-stocked grocery store should be able to furnish a decent black, oolong, and green.
(9:42:04 AM) Rob: Try to find dated boxes with the most current dates absolutely possible.
(9:42:37 AM) Rob: Those that are sealed up best will retain freshness better than those just wrapped in paper, but fresher is still better.
(9:43:41 AM) Aaron: I might purposely buy boxes past the expiration date too.

(9:45:19 AM) Rob: Y'know, I bet Rocky would gladly participate in this experiment.
(9:45:43 AM) Aaron: It's amazing how people do that though. Most people wouldn't walk up to somebody and go "you know, you're a real fat ass. Have you been eating a lot lately?". But they feel free to walk up to me and go, "Damn you're skinny".
(9:46:07 AM) Aaron: Rocky has had the flu, plus he smokes. The smoking excludes him from this experiment.
(9:46:26 AM) Aaron: Anybody who smokes has diminshed tasting abilities, it's a documented fact.
(9:46:35 AM) Rob: By the time I can get in samples for the experiment, he'll have long gotten over the flu.
(9:47:32 AM) Aaron: Unless you start smoking Marlboros he wouldn't be able to provide a data set that allowed valid comparisons.
(9:48:01 AM) Aaron: If neither of you can detect a difference, then fine. But if you can and he can't, then the smoking variable would ruin the results.
(9:48:41 AM) Rob: How about a non-smoker who doesn't drink tea?
(9:49:04 AM) Rob: Depends on what you're actually testing for, I guess.
(9:50:08 AM) Aaron: I think it's probably a good idea to first get some data off you before looking for other comparisons. Ideally, in a perfect world, there would be many subjects of each type of course. But we only have so much time and money for this thing.
(9:50:57 AM) Rob: Well, if you want to go with a black, jasmine, oolong, green experiment...
(9:51:06 AM) Rob: which is my suggestion...
(9:51:43 AM) Aaron: yeah, i think that's the way.
(9:51:43 AM) Rob: I can order up a few samples of each from the reputable suppliers, and hand them off to you. From that point, I won't know which from each category you even picked to test against the cheap stuff.
(9:52:55 AM) Rob: Grocery stores don't label black tea as "black tea" as a rule, so you may benefit from a bit of guidance on that one.
(9:53:33 AM) Aaron: the tea ppl drink down here is black tea IIRC, is it not?
(9:53:47 AM) Rob: depends on the tea
(9:54:21 AM) Rob: I could make a sweeping generalization and say yes, but that's not experiment-safe.
(9:56:24 AM) Rob: I don't really drink premium black tea, since I don't much care for the stuff, btw.
(9:57:30 AM) Rob: Not wild about very many oolongs, either, but I do drink some.
(9:58:05 AM) Rob: Ooh, I've come up with an improvement to this process.
(9:58:41 AM) Rob: Instead of having me pick out the samples, I'll hit up one of the elite tea drinkers to do it so I won't know even that much.
(10:00:43 AM) Aaron: That's a great idea. Just make sure the elite tea drinker who picks the samples understands we need a large gap in quality for the experiment. In other words, don't buy super expensive tea and expect to compare it against slightly less super expensive tea.
(10:01:50 AM) Rob: I'll actually paste this entire conversation into a post to the private elite tea drinking forum and not look at the thread that follows. So they'll know all your parameters and be able to work out consensus on how to approach it.
(10:02:22 AM) Aaron: cut the parts where i'm not talking about tea of course
(10:02:31 AM) Rob: They'll even have to agree to the "correct brewing parameters" part, so you'll have a more reliable standard.

(10:06:47 AM) Rob: Mind if I provide them with your gmail addy so they can follow up w/o me?
(10:07:17 AM) Aaron: sure, as long as they don't expect immediate response. looks like i may actually have to work some today.

Aaron's gmail address is: groff200@gmail.com

[hop_goblin]

HAHA I had to make popcorn for this one!

[ABx]

Sounds like a good experiment for a place like this, actually.. maybe do a tasting?

I think most jasmines are green, though. I'm sure that there are jasmine scented teas of all varieties, but most of what I've encountered were greens.

My bet is that someone that knows tea will be able to tell the difference. There's a pretty big difference between good teas and bad ones, and there are a lot of teas that are expensive but not impressive. I think that, in general, there are a lot more characteristics to look for in a good tea, and a lot of people probably don't really know what to look for in gourmet food. An average person that doesn't know tea well might be a different story, however. People around here are also fairly used to getting a variety of teas and teasing out the differences between them.

[Sydney]

OK, I cheated and checked to see if anyone replied to the monstrous experiment post.

Basically, my bud's a hardcore science geek (as in, reads astrophysics math equations for pleasure). He drinks nappy dust green tea from bags, which he nukes to oblivion. He hates the stuff, but drinks it in hopes it will off-set a genetic predisposition to colon cancer.

He wants to test his theory that there's no actual/noticable difference between good tea and bad, and that it's all in my head.

If the ITD crew can agree on a few suggested teas to compare against one another for me to try in a blind tasting, and provide him with written instructions on how to prepare them (both the good and the bad ones), I'll buy the tea, and he gets to run his test.

The madness I initially posted to start this thread is one of our more brief, pleasant discussions. heh

[scruffmcgruff]

Wouldn't it be better to test to see if he can tell the difference? That would eliminate complications with brewing methods, and if even he can tell the difference, it proves the point all the more.

[Space Samurai]

My thoughts...

I think he is right to a point. I tend to enjoy tea more when I know where it came from and I know what I'm drinking and when I prepare it with tea ware that I love. But all that says is that there is more to enjoying tea than just taste.

You two talk about brewing parameters...not scientific, but I can tell you from experience, particularly with gong fu, is that variables like time can make quite a distinguishable difference.

Tea vs tea bags...recently I had a chance to compare Den's Guricha/Tamaryokucha with Two Leaves and a Bud's Tamaryokucha (Tea bag). I brewed them exactly the same, same amount of grams, same quantity of water, same amount of time. There wasn't a subtle difference; the two didn't even compare. It was night and day. The Den's was a good, flavorful cup of green tea, while the 2L and a bud tasted like tea water.

Its possible that a person with a completely undeveloped palate might have problems seeing the difference, I guess.

[Salsero]

Whether it be wine, milk, cigars, tea, opera, or metal, good is often something we learn as we become more involved in it. If you gave a novice (like me!) some $1,000-per-bottle Aged Single Malt Scotch Whiskey, it would be wasted. The uneducated palate has no idea what to look for and might well appreciate something less complex and sophisticated. Taste is a cultural value that is learned. Just look at French cheeses or African grubs, pop music of the 50's or the 70's. Giving fine tea to someone who has no knowledge base or frame of reference is just wasting fine tea. My son likes tea, but he likes it with sugar and sometimes milk. I don't give him my best teas, he wouldn't like them.

So, what I am trying to say is that it may not be possible for an idiot to taste the difference between a fine tea and trash, especially if the idiot is brewing it! On the other hand, someone with some experience in that kind of tea (say Hou Kui vs Stash "green") will probably be able to pick out their preferred tea close to 100% of the time.

[Sydney]

Since he wants to see a really bad tea compared with a really good one, this seems like slam dunk to me.

But I don't think he realizes what's involved in making a proper cup of tea correctly. Whether he likes it or not, he's going to have to go through a little training.

[Salsero]

It seems to me that the brewing parameters may not be the same either. A really bad Assam would be undrinkable at 3 or 4 minutes, a time that might be ideal for a really good Assam.

[Sydney]

My *assumption* is that he'll follow the instructions that come with the tea bags. Not sure, though.

[CynTEAa]

My two cents:

He should brew the two teas exactly the same way. 180F at 3 minutes would probably be ideal. He would also have to weigh the leaf in the bag and get the same amount of the loose. Whatever the loose is, it should be something not too fussy about temp, like a decent Dragonwell vs. what he normally drinks

When I read,

He wants to test his theory that there's no actual/noticable difference between good tea and bad, and that it's all in my head.

...I laughed really hard. It has been my experience that even a novice can taste the difference. But, there is always a chance he doesn't have taste buds.

[skywarrior]

I guess this is a no-brainer for me. For years, I've drank tea in teabags. Only when I go hold of good loose tea did things start falling into place.

That being said, I still occasionally use teabags, but only for convenience, usually because I'm traveling and would rather have tea than not.

[ABx]

The only thing about brewing them the same way is that the chopped up leaf in the teabag will brew a lot faster than whole leaf. Same basic principle applies to the amount of leaf, so I'd think it would be more appropriate to brew them the way the individual tea demands.

You might look at something like the cloud mist green from TeaCuppa. That's one that I've always really liked (I consider it to be everything a good green should be, and it's easy to make). Comparing a green like that to a teabag would be pretty obvious. You might want to avoid anything that's too subtle, though, as newbies tend to think that they're too bland.

Maybe a dian hong for a black. When it comes to a lot of black teas, he may not notice as much of a difference, depending on what it's being compared against.

Oolong may be a bit more difficult to find in a grocery store. A lot of grocery stores don't carry oolongs. Though if they do it will usually be a really cheap bai hao, which you could always compare against something like a Taiwan high mountain or baozhong for a bit more of a striking contrast If you'd rather have something closer to what's in the bag, Stephane (of the Tea Masters blog) has an amazing bai hao, the "Perfect Bai Hao".

I think the hard part will be to ensure that he doesn't over-steep anything. Take the best tea and over-steep it until it's bitter, and he's likely to deem it to be just the same. On the other hand if he makes it too weak then he could say it's 'too weak'.

[Chip]

While I am sure there are acceptable bagged teas available and have had several that were quite good, with 99% of the baged teas out there, there is such a huge difference compared to looseleaf that even a newbie can tell the difference.

After all, we were almost all bagged tea newbie drinkers at first til we tried loose and were blown away by the extreme experience of finally drinking really good tea.

Another factor with bags, once they are bagged no matter how good they are, they are exposed to much more air compared to their loose leaf brethren. Foil pouches can reduce this somewhat, but I get kinda queazy when I walk into a kitchen and see a box of lipton or whatever, full of about a million paper wrapped pouches of tea, it is actually kinda infuriating. Obviopusly they are selling to a sector of the market that just doesn't give a shit.

[Sydney]

What he wants to try is what we'd consider to be really high grade tea vs what we'd deem really awful stuff, to see if I can really tell the difference blind.

His theory is that "about 75% of the experience is all internal and has nothing to do with the tea itself."

Personally, I'm willing to bet that I can, in fact, identify (for instance) Miyabi when placed up against the cheapest grocery store green tea he can find.

I also feel pretty certain I can tell the difference between a good jasmine tea and the stuff we're offered at our favorite local Chinese restaurant.

But whether he likes it or not, he's going to have to get a bit of hands-on training in how to make the stuff correctly.