The use of scales in brewing.

[tenuki]

I'm mystified by the use of scales in brewing. I own one for things like splitting up tea, checking on vendors, etc but have never thought to use one to weigh tea in order to determine brewing parameters. So I thought I would give fellow ITDs a chance to enlighten me, to convince me that using a scale for brewing is better.

As far as I know scales have been around since the invention of the lever, ie way before tea brewing started into common usage. They were certainly in common use during the time Lu Yu wrote his classic of tea. Here is Lu Wu's famous list of the 23 tea equipage...

brazier
basket
stoker
fire tongs
cauldron
stand
pincers
paper sack
roller
gauze and casket
the measure (shell is recommend, measure is by volume)
water dispenser
water filter
water ladle
banboo pincer
heating basin
tea bowl
basket for cups
the brush
the souring box
container for dregs
utensil rack
carryall

This '23 tea equip' is often refered to as an argument for using a scale (ie ancient people had 23 things to make tea, surely tea equipment x/y/z isn't bad). However, two points of logic escape the people making this arguement.

1) scales existed when Lu Wu wrote this rather exhaustive list.
2) scales are not mentioned.

Interesting eh? The only measuring he mentions that I could find is that you should not exceed one square inch of tea per pint of water. (?!?huh?!)

Now, let's take a look at the Japanese Tea cermemony.... hmn, no scales to be found there either as far as I know, although I'm not a student of Chanoyu.

"It is essentially a worship of the Imperfect, as it is a tender attempt to accomplish something possible in this impossible thing we know as life." - Okakura Kakuzo - The Book of Tea.


So.. Can we start with the following premises:

1) that we are trying to come up with reasons to _add_ the use of scales to traditional methods. Ie, tell me how a scale is better than not using one.
2) That the goal here is to get 'a better tea experience'
3) That 'better tea experience' is defined as continuing holistic improvement on the grand scale and optimum individual satisfaction on the small scale.
4) That #3 can vary between individuals in both definition and details of practice.

Anyone want to play or are you all too busy with real life to talk to a sophist?

[Wesli]

I own one for things like splitting up weed, checking on dealers, etc

Yeah. I used to do the same.

With tea, the only reason I can see to use it (other than the reasons you're already using yours for) is for comparing tasting notes and methods, or ex.: "Bitter? How many grams did you use?" "9" "9 grams!! You're lucky you haven't been smited!"

[scruffmcgruff]

I'm not sure I would use Lu Yu as an authority here. He also uses many tools that we do not; so it is hard to argue that addition to his list is somehow less like his model than is subtraction. Even so, I don't know how you would make the argument that Lu Yu achieved the one perfect method of tea-making; I think it is much more likely that there are multiple paths to the truth, per se, some of which may be more convenient to different people. As you also mention Okakura Kazuko, who understood a very different method of tea-making than Lu Yu, I assume you understand this.

Clearly the Japanese tea ceremony has strong Zen influences, so it will not promote the use of unnecessary clutter, and indeed praises the "Imperfect" as you mentioned. However, not all of us subscribe to Zen, and we may strive for the perfect (even in full awareness that it likely will never happen ).

So, with regard to your questions...

1. We are not trying to add a scale to traditional methods, we are building our own methods from whatever resources we like. Just as we incorporate parts of traditional methods, we also incorporate parts of less traditional methods. At least, that is how I view it. I do not claim to practice gong fu tea, for example, as what I really practice is my own composite technique.

2. "Better" is highly subjective, and will not be the same for Lu Yu, Okakura Kakuzo, you, or me. But yes, basically, we are in agreement here.

3. I'm not sure the first of the two premises here is held by all. If someone reaches a level of tea brewing they consider to be satisfactory, they may not care to fix what ain't broke.

4. Sure, I can agree to this.

I think the ultimate "reasons" for using a scale are one (or more) of the following, though these are just guesses:

1. Improves the enjoyment of one's personal ceremony/ritual.
2. Improves the quality (as the individual determines) of the resultant brew.

Anyway, I just wanted to give a pre-emptive *teahug* so this doesn't turn nasty like it did about the other issue (that will never be spoken of again).

[Eastree]

Before i continue, I will say that I used to strictly use a scale, but I have chosen not to so much for a while now.

1) that we are trying to come up with reasons to _add_ the use of scales to traditional methods. Ie, tell me how a scale is better than not using one.

The only reason I can say that using a scale is better than not using anything, is that it gives a returnable point of reference for measurement.

What makes it at all better than measurement by volume is that it gives a consistent comparison across the board. Some teas are much less dense than others, be it because of processing method, level of oxidation, or whatever. So when trying a new tea, a comparison to the mass (or weight, depending on your unit of measure) of a similar type of tea can get one on the right track for that tea a little more quickly. A 'scoop' of one tea may be not nearly enough, but too much for another.

It makes giving advice easier, as well as making the path to the right ratios shorter.

2) That the goal here is to get 'a better tea experience'

A consistent base for measuring tea creates a better experience by way of providing a more predictable outcome with the session. Using nothing at all can easily lead to too much or too little leaf, and therefore weak or very strong brews. But mostly, it brings every session to the realm of luck rather than predictability.

3) That 'better tea experience' is defined as continuing holistic improvement on the grand scale and optimum individual satisfaction on the small scale.
4) That #3 can vary between individuals in both definition and details of practice.

Combined:
A weighed measure of tea is easily communicated to many people of different places, which may use different units of volume measurement (teaspoon vs. idunno what is used for metric, but I've never seen a cc of tea), and much more precise than the innocuous 'scoop,' which can vary greatly in size and once again brings everyone right back to the volume conversion. Nearly every scale can weigh in grams (which, I know, is mass and not weight but that's beside the point).

Everyone had slightly different tastes in tea. Proof for this can be found in asking advice for brewing something such as Sencha; ten people will reply with different brewing parameters. But using these as a starting point leaves a returnable comparison with measurable parameters understandable by people of a wider audience than using indefinite terms, like 'spoonfull' or 'scoop.' From the starting point, the individual has complete freedom to use more or less tea, hotter or cooler water, more or less time, and the like, until the balance is struck in flavor, temperature, time, and all the other wonderful tea qualities that person desires to exact from the particular tea.

Each session's data can be recorded, if the person wants to, so that the next session with the same tea can be repeated rather than starting once again at square one.

Though it may not fill your requirements precisely, that's my take on it.

[tenuki]

[edit] eastree you posted while I was composing this, so I'll have to talk with your ideas in a later post [/edit]

Good thoughts scruff and wesli.

So far we have one possible point:

Wesli: Sharing data.

Which leads to question of which varies more with humidity, the weight or the volume of a tea. My guess would be weight, but on the other hand volume measurement is based on how loose/packed a tea is and probably has greater variance. Interesting, this may be a good reason.

However, another way to look at this problem is that you could communicate that too bitter means to much tea or too hight a temp and let the other end figure it out. I personally prefer this, but can see how exchanging measures may be useful in the sort turm. Still, it means I would have to measure my tea before I brewed it which is annoying, but if it helped someone on the other end that would be fine. Interestingly enough I would have to know the proper amount prior to measuring...

I mentioned Lu Yu because it is the first book written on tea and does not mention scales. Seems relevant to me as it makes a case that early brewers of tea had access to scales but did not use them. Also it was specifically aimed at a usual argument I've been presented with that 'traditional brewing used 23 equpage, so my one scale isn't so bad'. I agree that specifically in heating the water many fortunate advances have been made that replace 7 of the equipage with 1 or 2. However, read the section on 'in the absence of fire', it is very enlightening.

btw, the 4 points were not questions but proposed premises to the proposition:

Using a scale makes the tea experience better.

If you want me to turn nasty the surest way is to give me a hug. bwhahahaha.

[Ed]

tenuki wrote:
I own one for things like splitting up weed, checking on dealers, etc

Yeah. I used to do the same.

rofl

[Ed]

I was laughing at Wesley's joke. I didn't see anyone mocking scale usage here, but maybe I missed something.

[edit] Nevermind... Chip deleted his post.

[Chip]

I was laughing at Wesley's joke. I didn't see anyone mocking scale usage here, but maybe I missed something.

[edit] Nevermind... Chip deleted his post.

No...this is a a good thread...TeaDay was I felt a different story. I decided not to bring it up here.

I am weighing in on this one to simply say...I choose to use a scale because I choose to use a scale.

I respect those whose practice does not include a scale more than you will ever know. I do not, nor will I ever place someone into a defensive position based on whether they do or do not use a scale. Sometimes I do feel mocked for this practice like I am less skilled in my brewing practice.

I am able to quantify a rather subjective experience by using a scale...on a pretty precise level. It is easy...taking seconds and takes a lot of the guess work out of it for me.

I am not an intuitive person...more of a sensing person. Thus I am much more comfortable with a scale. I do not have to use one...I choose to use one. I did not use one from 1999-2006. But I noticed instant improvements in my results when I started using one ands amazing consistancy that I could never acheive BS (before scale)..this was enough to convince me that it is right for me. Fortunately, I do not have to prove myself to a school of tea masters. I would likely flunk out. (but I would love to try)

I have found that intuitive people tend to be confused why I would use a scale. I have found most times they are more comfortable with the intuitive side of their personality than their sensing side. I am the exact opposite...this is sometimes interpreted as lacking artistry. It is simply the way I am, why should I resist who I am. Why would I force an intuitive person to use a scale...they will not be happy...it will detract from their enjoyment, their tea experience.

I would also propose that we all weigh leaf to a degree. We use our senses when we scoop leaf out of a bag. Our senses tell us...wow, that is heavy leaf per volume. Our mind acts to interpret our senses in a split second. We all weigh tea. It becomes part of our routine and we may not ven notice it after a while. But I believe this to be true.

I would never suggest someone needs to use a scale unless I know from their reaction to the concept that it may fit their personality to use one. I received a PM from a member the other day expressing how she "loved" her scale. I would not have predicted that for this person...she seems more intuitive...so, now I must throw out all my theories of scale relativity!!!!!

The bottom line...if the use of a scale in brewing turns you off, it is clearly not right for you. Tenuki, I sense should not use a scale on a regular basis...it would be a negative distraction for him...just a thought.

[Chip]

Oh, I am sensing...but also highly structured...perfectionism I fight on a daily basis and I could be borderline OCD.

Otherwise, I am completely normal.

[tenuki]

I am able to quantify a rather subjective experience by using a scale...on a pretty precise level. It is easy...taking seconds and takes a lot of the guess work out of it for me.r

Interesting and well spoken post Chip. This sentence is at the heart of our apparent disagreement I think. It makes my hackles rise up and my bowels start moving. I can't help myself. lol.

I do not personally believe it possible to quantify a subjective experience without self delusion. I think this concept is at the heart of zen and a lot of other eastern practices. However, I do not know this to be true in an absolute sense and in any case it is not for me to decide what is self delusion on your part. (that is me apologizing for making that judgement).

Essentially for me knowing is false, and a scale represents knowing something trivial and out of context at the expense of more important things.

I think your explanation of things really helped me figure out what the disconnect was, it's far less mysterious.

As both an practicing artist, a struggling buddhist and a working engineer I'm battling constantly with this grasping at knowing thing. All my posts on this topic and a lot of others are that - misdirected rejection of my own scientific nature/part.

PS - I pretty much short circuit any jungian personality test I've taken but generally end up someplace like ESTp, INFp, ENTp or ***p (really it is all over the place). The only thing that is constant is the p. hehehe.

[EvenOdd]

I really only use one when trying to compare my eyeballing method to what others use through textual communication. I weigh different types of tea and get a feeling for how much is 5g or so. Baimudan, pile it up. A chunk of pu, just need a sliver.

A fluctuation of a gram isn't going to affect my tea session much. If I realized I used too little, increase the time a bit. Too much, make the steeps shorter.

Even when messing up amount of tea, it's hard to really mess up a cup to where I don't like it. I like to go with the flow.

[Space Samurai]

This is what ITD is all about!

Thanks for bringing it up, Tenuki. Its nice to see a little intense discussion in here.

First let me say that much of what Chip says rings true with me as well, so I won't bother repeating much of it. I choose to use a scale. For me, a scale is a more efficient tool than my eyeballs for measuring tea. Because of this, a using a scale helps me keep my mind on what I'm doing, making tea. It does not seperate me from the expereince, but in fact helps keep me grounded in it.

Also like Chip, I feel looked down on for using a scale. This baffles me, as I do not try to convince others that not using a scale is inferior.

We've already covered "sharing data," so I wont delve into that aspect. But I do believe "quanitfying the subjective" is an essential part of this.

Tradition

Okakura also said, "Art, to be fully appreciated, must be true to contemporaneous life. It is not we should ignore the claims of poseterity, but that we should seek to enjoy the present more...slavish conformity to traditions and formulas fetters the espression of individuality."

What this says to me is Lu Wu didn't use a scale? So what. I wanna use a scale.

Furthermore, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that my pocket sized digital scale is a little easier to use and less combersome than earlier models.

People who can't imagine diversity scare me.

Tenuki, I don't want to convince you to use a scale. Make tea however makes you happy and I will do the same.

You don't like them because it seperates you from the art and zen-ness of the experience, and I respect that. I don't find that using a scale has that effect on me. I'm not a traditionalist, perhaps that's why.

The scale is just a tool, and tools, no matter how few or how many, traditional or the newest gadget, are arbitrary. They only serve to make tea. They get in the way only if you let them. A spoon, your eyes, or a digital scale, they all serve the same purpose in the end.

[Salsero]

I am amazed at the energy everyone is putting into this discussion. Who cares? It's just the big enders and the little enders all over again.

[ABx]

I do not, nor will I ever place someone into a defensive position based on whether they do or do not use a scale. Sometimes I do feel mocked for this practice like I am less skilled in my brewing practice.

This is something I've never understood.

I think perhaps I may have given the wrong impression in the similar thread in the forum quite some time ago, but I've never felt that it's right or wrong to use a scale. Personally I don't usually use one unless I'm having a problem with some tea or need to give someone specific advice, but whether someone else uses a scale or not never really concerned me. If they are striving to get the most from their tea, then I'm not one to attempt to persuade someone to do something differently. I only hope that the person will be willing to exchange information so that I may learn from their experience, and hopefully offer something from my own experience (not something that is easily accomplished with someone convinced that their way is the "right" way).

[Space Samurai]

I am amazed at the energy everyone is putting into this discussion. Who cares? It's just the big enders and the little enders all over again.

Its that I'm tired of people who don't use scales assuming that their way is better for me.