Linux

[tjausti]

Howdy, I have noticed that we have a quite a few linux users on here. I am absolutely shocked to be honest.

glad to know I am not the only tea drinking geek hanging around here

How did you get started with linux? Whats your flavor of choice? Where do you see linux going in the future? Why do you use linux?

Ill go first:

I was introduced to RedHat desktop early in high school by a friend who's dad was a unix admin. I was over at his house and needed to look something up for a school project we were working on. I had no touched anything except win 95/98 at this time. I was very confused by what i found. This isnt windows? he politely showed me around and sent me home with a copy to install on my PC. I installed it as a secondary partition but never really messed with it too much. when I was considering what to do after High School I did not know what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I somehow came to the decision that i was going to start taking basic classes at the local university with a major in business and a minor in Computer science. after 2 semesters of 400 kids per class and stadium classes I decided this was not for me. I found ITT Tech to be an option i wanted to explore. after taking tour i found that I was very interested in their Computer Networking Systems Associates (Systems/Network Administration) after the forst 2 quarters of generic math, composition, BS classes it was finally time to get my hands dirty. The Operating Systems 101 Class. A chance to dabble in every flavor of Desktop/Server Operating systems One at a time. this was going to be fun. we started way back in 1950/1960 something with old punch cards (just to see how it started/ we did not have a functioning Mainframe in house.) we then moved on to Original Unix. I took to it like a duck to water. After going up through dos, apple OS1, ibm os, win 386, win1.0-95 we arrived at Minix (a unix based OS for PC architecture) and shortly after Linux 1.0, 2.0 etc up to early redhat. right then something clicked... I knew this. all those years ago i had played with this OS on another PC and later my own. we then moved on to modern linux distros (RedHat Enterprise and debian/later original ubuntu. I quickly installed fedora core 4 on my personal laptop as a dual boot with win 2000. after the class ended I still kept fedora around. as we moved up though the classes I found my self using windows less and less and fedora more and more. I then installed ubuntu on another partition and started using it daily as my main OS. windows was still there but rarely touched. when It came time to do our final project (A complete full functioning mixed architecture enterprise network) I volunteered to be the linux/unix admin of our group. I completed the Associated with honors and the Information security bachelors degree also with honors. I was snatched up by a credit card processing company as a systems technician. I learned SUN and Novell as well as other linux server distros (suse and RHEL of course). I then moved to sys admin status and after a year or so was picked up by one of the top 5 largest corporations in the world as a Network/Systems Admin. I am currently working on a Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE) Certification to compliment my CCNA (Cisco). I no longer have windows on any of my personal PC's other than a Virtual Machine for testing. I use windows on my secondary work laptop due to compliance issues but my my primary work laptop is ubuntu 8.10 and all of our servers are RHEL AS. I still administer the Windows Servers as well.

I personally feel in 10 years that MS will start going the way of IBM and start losing market share very quickly to apple, linux and other OS's. as MS gets more desperate and evil they will start losing customers. as linux progresses it will get more refined until it is as easy to live with as windows... if not more. righht now other than software compatibility I have had no reason not to use linux for everything. Wine helps but is still buggy and does not work with all apps. I think in the future you will see developers start writing code for apple and linux systems along with Windows. I cannot wait to see that day

I love linux for its scalability and security. Also i strongly disagree with MS's business plans and model. EVIL!

Please share your experiences.

[Ebtoulson]

Hello fellow techie, yes your are not alone. I'm currently on my 4th semester in Computer Science so I would classify myself as a geek .

As far as getting started I would have to say that getting a windows 95 computer in my home at the age of 7 helped. I was always interested in how things worked, how to manipulate programs, and how to make my computer faster. From there I built my first pc in 8th grade and then later worked in a computer repair shop for about 2 years in High School. During my last years in high school and early college I became really curious about different OS's (much like I am about tea). As far as linux I've dabbled in Solaris, Fedora, Mint, and several flavors of ubuntu. My favorite is ubuntu just because its improving so rapidly and is very easy to use. I actually don't use linux as my main OS, on my desktop, just because I play CS:S almost everyday and wine was a little to buggy for me. Currently I'm triple booting windows xp, OSX (hackintosh), and ubuntu 8.10.

Where do I think linux is going...hmm. Well 2008 was supposedly the year of linux but I still don't see the average user using something like ubuntu unless someone sets it up entirely for that person. Most people are comfortable with the very stripped down versions of linux that are on netbooks (i.e. eeeOS) but to me those are insulting to someone that wants to do more than use the internet, word, skype, and maybe the few extras added. I think that more vendors will give the option to load linux instead of windows (with a hefty price cut) which I believe is good enough. To be honest the main reason I started and continue using ubuntu was because it was free, allowed for more freedom, and it didn't drain my laptops battery as fast.

Idk if M$ is going to go the way of IBM anytime soon. Most people say that because they don't like change (i.e. vista.. gotta remember that people didn't like xp when it came out) and because apple is growing in popularity (doesn't m$ own part of apple?). I don't really know their model but as far as advertising goes I believe they are in right direction. I'm so glad they didn't try to copy apple and insult the other operating system because that would just give me the mental picture of two children fighting.

[tjausti]

Dude every year since 2001 was supposed to be the year of linux... its not going to be lol

Im glad to hear you are playing with other OS's like solaris as well. solaris is actually unix based but is really its own OS. Mac is actually a distro of Unix (BSD).

Glad to know you.

The business model I was speaking of is basically the idea that if a copany threatens you or is doing something better you buy them pillage what you can and then absolve them. its like walmart buying all the target stores then shutting them down...

There are many other evil processes MS likes to use but thats the one that gets under my skin.

and people rejected vista because it was aweful... as someone who had to start testing with it when it was first released I can attest that the first year was the most embarrassing thing I have seen in my life. we ordered 25 laptops to test weather we would start migrating to it. these are all vista certified laptops.... half of them would top the ram on boot... the first boot up after the install.... the ones that did boot ran very slow and to beat all the wireless cards did not have drivers for vista.... neither did any of our printers or mobile devices.... yeah thats the quality we expect from one of the largest companies in the world.... lol

the ibm theory is that they will eventually stop caring about quality, start pushing junk to their customers, charge amazing amounts of money and not care because they think they are invincible and you will deal with it because you have no choice. I believe they learned a big lesson with vista.... I saw that premonition coming true when vista was released. Windows 7 is actually looking to be a decent OS sofar. Its basically what vista should have been and wasn't. I reserve the right to change that opinion once they release it. the beta seems decent though.

[Pentox]

Ah linux fanboyism. Let me point out right off the bat that I'm not a linux fanboy. I follow the M$ banner. I've been in the Linux camp, OSX camp, and the M$ camp, and quite frankly the only one worth following is M$.

Linux in my opinion will never become what the fanboys wish it to be. An all around primary use desktop os. It just can't happen unless there's a major change in the computer literacy rate of the mass populous. Linux isn't able to take off how everyone wishes it could and switch over and just replace windows. The inherent problem lies in the trillions of dollars of invested code base in M$. A company developing for M$ really has no reason to switch over to linux. Linux is harder to support with the different flavors out there, where there is a small list of M$ supported OS's. The % of linux desktops in use is tiny in comparison, so again no base to target. The #1 reason though, is M$ office. Nothing can touch office. OSX only survives because you can get office for a mac. And don't even try to compare the quality of Open Office to M$ Office. There's just no comparison.

As for the OSX vs Windows debate, that's a different matter, but always remember OSX is not Linux.

Nobody can touch windows due to compliance problems. Because of that windows stays strong. And so windows will continue to be strong.

[tenuki]

%cat pentox > /dev/null

[Proinsias]

I'm running kubuntu on my spare laptop, which lives in the loft with a sneaky tea set and an ashtray.

I did have XP but it to crashed frequently. I stuck kubuntu on it six months or so ago and it's been pretty much plain sailing. Wi-fi from the first boot, no crashing, a little faster and within a few clicks I had firefox on with by bookmarks synced.

I don't do command line. I click on pictures and it works fine.

As for the no 1 reason being office, it is pretty far down my list as my gmail account covers most of my needs, maybe says more about me than it does about gmail.

The other thing I like about it as that if anything goes wrong I can download a fresh copy and go, at the moment I need to reinstall os x on my mac and I have no idea where I've put the disks.

Being free helps a great deal.

If you can read, navigate windows and like me use the computer for little more than internet, music, movies and uni stuff then it does the job nicely.

I have found that any time I've asked a question regarding linux I'm told to open up the consol. I've found ignoring those responses and clicking windows for a bit has sorted out any issues I've encountered thus far.

[tjausti]

Ah linux fanboyism. Let me point out right off the bat that I'm not a linux fanboy. I follow the M$ banner. I've been in the Linux camp, OSX camp, and the M$ camp, and quite frankly the only one worth following is M$.

Linux in my opinion will never become what the fanboys wish it to be. An all around primary use desktop os. It just can't happen unless there's a major change in the computer literacy rate of the mass populous. Linux isn't able to take off how everyone wishes it could and switch over and just replace windows. The inherent problem lies in the trillions of dollars of invested code base in M$. A company developing for M$ really has no reason to switch over to linux. Linux is harder to support with the different flavors out there, where there is a small list of M$ supported OS's. The % of linux desktops in use is tiny in comparison, so again no base to target. The #1 reason though, is M$ office. Nothing can touch office. OSX only survives because you can get office for a mac. And don't even try to compare the quality of Open Office to M$ Office. There's just no comparison.

As for the OSX vs Windows debate, that's a different matter, but always remember OSX is not Linux.

Nobody can touch windows due to compliance problems. Because of that windows stays strong. And so windows will continue to be strong.

I completely agree with you on some statements. I do not think linux will over through MS over night or amybe at all... but as linux develops it gets easier and easier and with the announcement of linux moving to a module based architecture (similar to how the iPhone handles applications, single file = full application as far as the user can see. its a very cool idea..) I think the future holds real potential. it may not be the end all OS but it will definitly be a player for a long time.... remember 20 years ago MS was a pipe dream in a garage and IBM was the major OS....

I would also like to point out that most corporations are jumping ship from MS and moving to linux (ours included) we are migrating user desktops rapidly to ubuntu with open office and evolution.... all of our server excluding the AD Servers are also moving to redhat. the cost savings for us is about 3,000,000 per year. this price includes the difference in downtime as well as licensing and support....

I am not here to start an argument just voicing my opinion.

also if you would like to see proof of how linux is moving in the correct direction look at all the government bodies moving to it and the return on investment....

I would also like to point out that google has just joined the linux OS PC market (They have been a player in the Linux Mobile market for some time) this is huge corporate backing for linux.

If anyone remembers how hard linux was to install and use just a few years back, compare that to the ease of installation for fedora/redhat/ubuntu currently it is very obvious that linux is getting much more user friendly. I will agree that with out special support (aka me or other IT pros) to assist linux is very unfamiliar to most users and will not make a big splash in the desktop market. but because companies are moving to it more people will eventually get familiar with it at work and as linux progresses to become more user friendly it is inevitable that it will start to become more popular.

I will also point out that as far as supporting the OS there is something to be said for having the ability to simply mount a HDD and copy over the users home folder and drop it on a new pc and retain all their settings and files. also if a linux machine blows up you can simply copy over the correct files with the original ones to resolve the issue. (this assuming you are working with a standard image and applications)

most of our down time and support time for the windows boxes are tracking down and removing viruses and spyware.... linux does not have this issue.... there is huge cost saving in that alone. especially if you factor in the cost of incident if any data is stolen by viruses or malware.

again not trying to start anything just voicing my opinion based on what I have seen first hand in a major corporation and in my personal life.

Thanks
Thomas

[Intuit]

*ANY* OS that can emulate Microsoft but resolves the numerous weaknesses that invite hackers to crank out malware, contributing to an ever more costly wave of internet crime, can claim the golden ring of mega-clientele.

MS knows this. Competitors know this.

The rest of us are waiting.

[tjausti]

I would like to point out another major issue with MS. Im sitting here on my wifes laptop (vista) and it has all of a sudden decided that the wireless card does not have any drivers and required a reboot. I have linux systems that have 400 days uptime, this includes god knows how many updates, software installs, uninstalls, upgrades, etc. yet ms seems to want to reboot if you even so much as look at it wrong.


I have never even had to install a driver in linux the devices work under linux with the default drivers preinstalled on the OS. I have never figured out why MS cannot get this concept to work for them. ubuntu is less than 512 mb vista takes up 10 gigs..... yet ubuntu can somehow get all these devices to work without having to have gigs and gigs of drivers on disk.... MS needs to figure out how to do this. drivers seem to be a major problem in vista....

A company developing for M$ really has no reason to switch over to linux.

no switch but write apps with multiple platforms in mind. as linux and mac gain popularity you will start seeing many more applications move cross platform. the same argument was made when Playstation2 was the leader in console wars. there is no reason to port a game to xbox.... no one is buying xbox's. again we heard this argument when PS3 came out. there would be no way they would cross platform games from 360. yet it always seems that these companies realize that they are missing out on some money and it not very hard to write apps to work cross platform. with linux and mac moving to a common programming standard this will only make things better for both of these OS's.

[Ebtoulson]

The #1 reason though, is M$ office. Nothing can touch office. OSX only survives because you can get office for a mac. And don't even try to compare the quality of Open Office to M$ Office. There's just no comparison.

Going to have to respectfully disagree with you there. I have several friends that own macs and utterly hate microsoft office (maybe because of fanboyism) but I looked at it and it looked/ran somewhat different. Only one uses m$ office. And to be honest I would not purchase m$ office myself if I didn't get a student discount. I do use OpenOffice on my laptop and find no problem with it, once your learn the layout it perfect or typing notes/essays.

Im sitting here on my wifes laptop (vista) and it has all of a sudden decided that the wireless card does not have any drivers and required a reboot.

I actually had the same problem on 8.10 for my laptop.

[scruffmcgruff]

...And to be honest I would not purchase m$ office myself if I didn't get a student discount. I do use OpenOffice on my laptop and find no problem with it, once your learn the layout it perfect or typing notes/essays.

Yes, but think about how many companies and schools depend on office-- I'd bet that makes up a huge part of their market. Also, Word may be easily replaceable but Excel is basically *the* standard (AFAIK) in commercial/industrial/scientific/etc. spreadsheet work. Trying to convert complex spreadsheets between different programs is not worth saving a few pennies-- I know that from personal experience.

FWIW, I do prefer Pages to Word on the Mac-- office just feels weird. Still, it was a real pain to convert spreadsheets from Numbers to Excel when I had to! If I had to use my laptop to do a lot of work with an Office-based community though, I would definitely switch.

[Tea Noob]

*ANY* OS that can emulate Microsoft but resolves the numerous weaknesses that invite hackers to crank out malware, contributing to an ever more costly wave of internet crime, can claim the golden ring of mega-clientele.

MS knows this. Competitors know this.

The rest of us are waiting.

I will preface this by saying I am not a computer expert.

This reminds of the ad campaign Mac ran with for a while, bragging about how they don't get viruses. Isn't this a market share issue? Considering Microsoft has 90% market share, isn't that the driving force behind the hackers rather than it being their inherent weaknesses? Won't anything that has that much market share have these problems? Why would someone devote time to creating a virus that may only potentially affect 9% of computers when they can spend the same amount of time trying to affect 90%. If roles were reversed and Mac had 90% market share and all virus programmers were targeting them, would we be having the same discussion but reversed roles?

I am not pretending to know the answers to any of those questions but I think it would be an interesting debate. Especially if we can get a few Fanboys to battle it out.

[Ebtoulson]

Isn't this a market share issue? Considering Microsoft has 90% market share, isn't that the driving force behind the hackers rather than it being their inherent weaknesses?

Yea pretty much. Read an article a couple days ago that says that safari (stock browser on OSX) was the easiest browser to hack into and there have been a couple of ipod virus'.

Especially if we can get a few Fanboys to battle it out.

Haha trying to start a flame war!?

[hooksie]

I will preface this by saying I am not a computer expert.

This reminds of the ad campaign Mac ran with for a while, bragging about how they don't get viruses. Isn't this a market share issue? Considering Microsoft has 90% market share, isn't that the driving force behind the hackers rather than it being their inherent weaknesses? Won't anything that has that much market share have these problems? Why would someone devote time to creating a virus that may only potentially affect 9% of computers when they can spend the same amount of time trying to affect 90%. If roles were reversed and Mac had 90% market share and all virus programmers were targeting them, would we be having the same discussion but reversed roles?

Although there is some truth to this, there's a bigger reason behind this.

Historically the level of permission users have has always been different between Linux based systems and Windows based systems. While Microsoft tried to change this in Vista, in the past Windows normally runs in what would be called a "default allow" mode. It's assumed you're allowed to do something unless you're explicitly denied access to it. In Linux, the OS is much more restrictive; any system changes tend to need you to enter a root password (or run the program through sudo, also requiring a password). You could call this "default deny" to contrast with Windows.

This inherent difference in approach is what gives Linux such a huge edge in security. Of course it doesn't alleviate social engineering issues, but that's a whole different story.

Linux in my opinion will never become what the fanboys wish it to be. An all around primary use desktop os.

I respectfully disagree. I've been able to use it quite effectively without complicated methodologies. I've also seen rather stupid people (to be blunt) pick it up rather quickly.

Especially if we can get a few Fanboys to battle it out.

I'll grab my pitchfork.

Also:

Code: Select all

Linux GLaDOS 2.6.18-6-686 #1 SMP Sat Dec 27 09:31:05 UTC 2008 i686
...
fish@GLaDOS:~$ uptime
 02:45:06 up 25 days,  1:14,  1 user,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00

[tjausti]

I have heard the virus issue argued to death. fact of the matter is to say that there is no reason to write a linux virus is complete BS. if you look at the server market you will find that most secure servers are unix/linux. we are talking bank systems, government systems, credit card processing servers, the medical field is very heavily unix driven, almost any database driven system, web servers, GOOGLE Servers including thier financial systems, all of our accounting systems, warehouse manageent systems, etc. the big difference is in linux/unix by default you have no permissions to the systems unless you are exclusively allowed them where as windows you are given full permission to everything by default. MS has gotten better with vista's UAC system but it was so annoying that most people turn it off. when you are about to make a change to a linux system you have to purposely enter the admin password or you will only effect your account not the core system.

also for a virus to be effective it has to spread faster than it is killed. xp likes to talk to other systems through ipc$ shares which is an administrative share. viruses have had a field day with this. linux does not automatically allow connection and permission to do anything remotely with out credentials.

MS and unix/linux is a world apart as far as security goes. MS is getting there but its still way off base.


ps.
Sorry hear about your trouble with wireless cards in linux . would it happen to be an atheros card? for some reason those seem to be a problem.