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May 4th, '09, 02:28
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Affinity of Tea with the Teapot

by oldmanteapot » May 4th, '09, 02:28

Hi all,

I'm asking this with reference to a book entitled "The Beauty of Chinese Yixing Teapots & the Finer Art of Tea Drinking" authored by Lim Kean Siew. Since I can't load links at the moment, you can look up the title at Amazon. The book is there.

The author talked about the affinity of tea to the teapot used. For those who have not read the book, there is a section that claims that:

1. Teapots used to brew tea that has affinity to it will glow vibrantly and when used on some other tea which has no affinity to the pot, will render the teapot dull in outward appearance.

2. The teapot would be able to bring out the full aroma and taste of the tea.

I've personally tried this and found it to be true but not easy to match a tea to a particular teapot unless you have an extensive collection of teapots. There have been strong opinions at both ends of the camp. But let's make this a good exchange of opinions and not flare the entire topic to a heated debate :D

What are your experiences and opinions on this topic?

Cheers!

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May 4th, '09, 12:55
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by wyardley » May 4th, '09, 12:55

I've read the book and honestly, I'm quite skeptical of the author's assertions (especially since he tries to act as if his observations are the result of scientific experimentation when they're clearly not). Whether or not there's a kernel of truth in what he's saying, I don't think he backs up his assertions very well. Also, I don't agree with his conclusion that very small pots are not ideal for making tea.

And even if his theory is true, to determine what tea(s) a pot is ideally suited for would require almost impossible amounts of trial and error. And the granularity of his choices, and the vast differences in the type of clay suited to two very similar teas doesn't make sense -- if high fire da hong pao is ideally suited to a tall, pitcher-shaped high-fired red clay, why would a high fire tie luo han be suited to a short purple clay pot? Since the properties of the tea are similar, almost identical, why wouldn't the pots suited for them be similar or identical. If I understand his theory right, it has to do with the oils from certain teas fitting through the micro-pores in certain pots and not through others. I have a hard time believing that the oils in different subvarietals of tea (and the size of pores in zisha) have properties that are so narrowly-defined and specific.

One other problem with his theory is that shape (which I think most people would agree can, and does, play a role in the way a pot makes tea) wouldn't really come into play if the properties of the clay are all that matters. And he doesn't seem to take processing (level of roasting / oxidation) into account at all.

However, since most of us don't have access to the types of pots the author of the book things are suitable (he asserts that master-made pots are the only ones with good quality clay), if you believe him, you could always say that we all just have crappy pots with bad clay, and that's why we're unable to see the same sort of results he does. I will happily accept donations of master-made antique Yixing for "scientific research". PM me for my address. I cannot guarantee that the pots will be returned.

The book is nice for the pictures, but IMHO, not at all worth the greatly inflated prices the book goes for (since it was censored by the Malaysian government, it's been out of print for a while).
Last edited by wyardley on May 4th, '09, 13:08, edited 1 time in total.

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by teashionista » May 4th, '09, 13:06

I'm not sure if its my teapot's affinity to shu pu or some particulars about the shape/clay, but shu pu-erh brewed in one of my Yixings comes out great! The teapot has also taken on some luster (which may be attributable to frequent use) :D

I originally used that teapot for Wu Yi oolongs (even seasoned it with DHP!), and then tried brewing Dang Congs in them. Both kinds of tea tasted much better brewed in a gaiwan. Then one day I brewed some shu in it, and was amazed at how much better it tasted (compared to the same tea brewed in a gaiwan). After 2 uses the teapot started smelling like shu, even when it's dry! I'm all for keeping my teapots happy, so now it's used exclusively for this kind of tea :D

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May 4th, '09, 15:07
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by Tead Off » May 4th, '09, 15:07

I'm with wyardley on this one. As a big advocate of matching clay type and shape with teas, it's hard to believe in the 'magical' transformations of the appearance of the pots.

The variations are too mind boggling to even consider. And, there is no accounting for the state of his body, ph levels, throughout the day, that will color any substance taken into the body regarding both taste and smell. 2 people drinking the same tea at the same table will not experience the same thing. My wife proved that to me this morning! :D

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by oldmanteapot » May 4th, '09, 22:17

wyardley wrote:I've read the book and honestly, I'm quite skeptical of the author's assertions (especially since he tries to act as if his observations are the result of scientific experimentation when they're clearly not). Whether or not there's a kernel of truth in what he's saying, I don't think he backs up his assertions very well. Also, I don't agree with his conclusion that very small pots are not ideal for making tea.

And even if his theory is true, to determine what tea(s) a pot is ideally suited for would require almost impossible amounts of trial and error. And the granularity of his choices, and the vast differences in the type of clay suited to two very similar teas doesn't make sense -- if high fire da hong pao is ideally suited to a tall, pitcher-shaped high-fired red clay, why would a high fire tie luo han be suited to a short purple clay pot? Since the properties of the tea are similar, almost identical, why wouldn't the pots suited for them be similar or identical. If I understand his theory right, it has to do with the oils from certain teas fitting through the micro-pores in certain pots and not through others. I have a hard time believing that the oils in different subvarietals of tea (and the size of pores in zisha) have properties that are so narrowly-defined and specific.

One other problem with his theory is that shape (which I think most people would agree can, and does, play a role in the way a pot makes tea) wouldn't really come into play if the properties of the clay are all that matters. And he doesn't seem to take processing (level of roasting / oxidation) into account at all.

However, since most of us don't have access to the types of pots the author of the book things are suitable (he asserts that master-made pots are the only ones with good quality clay), if you believe him, you could always say that we all just have crappy pots with bad clay, and that's why we're unable to see the same sort of results he does. I will happily accept donations of master-made antique Yixing for "scientific research". PM me for my address. I cannot guarantee that the pots will be returned.

The book is nice for the pictures, but IMHO, not at all worth the greatly inflated prices the book goes for (since it was censored by the Malaysian government, it's been out of print for a while).
Hi wyardley,

Thanks for your insightful thoughts.

Yes, I agree with you that some of his theory is very hard to accept, especially when he claims that small teapots are not suitable for making tea. I've got plenty of small teapots that makes great tea!

I've met him in person a couple of times and he is a very opinionated rich old man who has all the millions to spend on artisan teapots who only churns out top quality clay teapots. Some of the teapots there cost as much as RM180,000.... that's approx USD50,000 per teapot!

Like I mentioned, there have been very strong opinions regarding his claims, even here in Penang itself! Some feels that it's simply a psychological gimmick.

Though I may not agree entirely with his claims, but he definitely has plenty of good pictures in there :D Most of the teapots are his personal collection. Don't worry, I use crappy pots too, when compared to the author's collection... ehehe... Please accept my apologies if I've offended you or your collections of teapots.

I personally don't fancy collecting artisan teapots as they are way too far beyond my financial reach. But I do source out for IMO good quality vintage teapots (somewhere within the range of 20 - 100 years old).

One man's meat, may be the other's poison.... the bottom line here is... we all enjoy drinking tea and we love our teapots... iregardless of size, shape, clay, age or source.

Cheers!

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May 4th, '09, 22:22
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by oldmanteapot » May 4th, '09, 22:22

teashionista wrote:I originally used that teapot for Wu Yi oolongs (even seasoned it with DHP!), and then tried brewing Dang Congs in them. Both kinds of tea tasted much better brewed in a gaiwan. Then one day I brewed some shu in it, and was amazed at how much better it tasted (compared to the same tea brewed in a gaiwan). After 2 uses the teapot started smelling like shu, even when it's dry! I'm all for keeping my teapots happy, so now it's used exclusively for this kind of tea :D
Hi teashionista,

That's what I meant when I said affinity. Somehow, certain tea comes out much better than others in a specific teapot. Glad you've found a combination that keeps you and your teapot happy.

Cheers!

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May 4th, '09, 22:43
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by oldmanteapot » May 4th, '09, 22:43

Tead Off wrote:I'm with wyardley on this one. As a big advocate of matching clay type and shape with teas, it's hard to believe in the 'magical' transformations of the appearance of the pots.

The variations are too mind boggling to even consider. And, there is no accounting for the state of his body, ph levels, throughout the day, that will color any substance taken into the body regarding both taste and smell. 2 people drinking the same tea at the same table will not experience the same thing. My wife proved that to me this morning! :D
Hi Tead Off!

I honestly don't think there are any 'magical' transformations to the appearance of the teapot. But I've witnessed this myself... we did a test with one specific teapot, non artisan, but vintage, which we know brews very good raw pu'erh. We brewed some cooked pu'erh in it... the brew didn't come out well at all and the teapot lost it's luster and took on a pale appearance. There were a few of us (who were skeptical) there, who went back believers but with a "pinch of salt". Then we brew raw pu'erh in the same pot and the luster returned! There is no scientific explanation to this nor did we perform an elaborate scientific test. But all of us witnessed the luster disappear and reappear!

Over the next few months and years, we tried matching and our teapots to the tea that we enjoy so much. One conclusion IMO that I can draw is, when you've found the right teapot for the tea, again, irregardless of shape, size or make, every sip of tea is unforgettable!

My 2 cents!

Cheers!!

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May 4th, '09, 23:43
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by Tead Off » May 4th, '09, 23:43

Oldman, I can't argue for or against 'magical' transformations. Everyone sees and tastes differently.

His claim that small teapots cannot make good tea may have some merit, imo. As a user of small tea pots, I find that the tea leaves often taste better and are allowed to come into contact with the water more effectively if a slightly larger pot is used or less leaf is put into the small pot. This seems to allow the leaves to expand and give their all. With Taiwan oolong, the hand picked high mountain types have beautiful leaves that are tightly rolled. When they are put into a wider pot, they seem to breath more, unfurling and allowing their flavor and aroma to expand. Is it my imagination? Who's to say?

Collectors, in general, are often arrogant and egocentric about their things, especially if they are collecting at a top level. I like the quote from the movie 'Dean Spanley', "Certainty is a sign of a closed mind"!

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May 4th, '09, 23:55
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by oldmanteapot » May 4th, '09, 23:55

Hi Tead Off,
Tead Off wrote:His claim that small teapots cannot make good tea may have some merit, imo. As a user of small tea pots, I find that the tea leaves often taste better and are allowed to come into contact with the water more effectively if a slightly larger pot is used or less leaf is put into the small pot. This seems to allow the leaves to expand and give their all. With Taiwan oolong, the hand picked high mountain types have beautiful leaves that are tightly rolled. When they are put into a wider pot, they seem to breath more, unfurling and allowing their flavor and aroma to expand. Is it my imagination? Who's to say?
I agree with your observations. It all depends on the tea we're brewing. I'll use a small zhuni teapot if i'm brewing Da Hong Pao, but a slightly larger one when I'm brewing Lao Chong Shui Shien, which happens to have larger and longer leaves. Having more space for the tea leaves to expand releases more flavour and aroma from the tea.
Tead Off wrote:Collectors, in general, are often arrogant and egocentric about their things, especially if they are collecting at a top level. I like the quote from the movie 'Dean Spanley', "Certainty is a sign of a closed mind"!
Well said!

Cheers :)

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May 5th, '09, 00:15
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by Tead Off » May 5th, '09, 00:15

I was also using a zhuni for DHP, a wider, shorter pot. Then I bought a Japanese banko purple clay teapot which is said to NOT be suited for Oolongs. The banko seemed to smooth out and focus the DHP in a way I have not experienced before. A very clean and clear flavor. It is quickly becoming a favorite pot of mine.

This is making me crave some more tea :D

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by zicheng » May 5th, '09, 00:40

Those of you who believe in this affinity thing are commiting yourselves to advocating trying different teas in the same Yixing. I think that this is a very good idea. Just because the teapot is made of a certain clay doesn't mean it's necessarily good for a certain tea, if only because you may know less about the clay than you think.

Even though many people (especially vendors) say that you should never brew more than one kind of tea in one Yixing, I think a little experimentation early on is okay. One brew won't affect the teapot much in the long run.

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by oldmanteapot » May 5th, '09, 01:56

Tead Off wrote:This is making me crave some more tea :D
Yeah!.. Me too! I've set my pallets to a brew of DHP after dinner tonight.

Cheers! :)

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by oldmanteapot » May 5th, '09, 02:01

zicheng wrote:Even though many people (especially vendors) say that you should never brew more than one kind of tea in one Yixing, I think a little experimentation early on is okay. One brew won't affect the teapot much in the long run.
Hi zicheng,

Yeah.... to me, I won't know for sure if I didn't try and experiment. Personally, tea is both a communal drink and also a very personal one too. I've friends who prefer drinking DHP with a 'charcoal' aroma and some who doesn't. Again, one man's meat, may be another's poison.

As long as you're enjoying your every sip of tea, there's no one crappy teapot or tea.

Cheers!

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May 5th, '09, 04:48
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by chrl42 » May 5th, '09, 04:48

Teapot doesn't necessarily have to be so big for tea leaves to release, I think it has more to do with shapes such as ImageImage

Widen space eases for leaves to release, but at a time it will release out aroma quickly, those shapes are usually recommended for Puerh.

Southern Zhuni pots are mostly small and tight, keeping aroma and leaves that enables to brew numerous times..

BTW, love your avatar :)

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May 5th, '09, 06:52
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by oldmanteapot » May 5th, '09, 06:52

Hi chrl42,

Yeah, they don't need to be big, as long as there's enough space for the tea leaves to unfold and open up.
BTW, love your avatar
Thanks. That's one of my favorite shui ping. 1960s Zhuni which I use to brew Rou Gui. I'll post some pics of this baby when I have reached my allowable limit to start posting links.

Cheers!

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