No tradition...

[depravitea]

I know I can't be the only one who feels like we have no traditions in America, be it cultural or something your family does (or doesn't, in this case.)
My family has been here for the past 3 generations or so and it seems like we have nothing today of our (Irish) past.
It makes me envious of countries, cultures and families that have had something passed on for generations.
I felt like I had nothing to pass on to my son...
Until very recently.
I was reading an online article at work (I can't find it at home, but I'm looking for it.)
The article was about how this guy was brought up with tea. It was an everyday thing for his family.
He said that every morning before school his dad would make him a cup and they would drink tea and read together for half an hour. That blew my mind. It's such a simple thing, so small, so easy to do. Yet it seems to be something he remembers fondly.

I think I'm going to "borrow" this tradition (in the American tradition), and make a cuppa for my son every morning, and we can read together before walking to the school bus.

Anyway, not to be all Chicken Soup for the Culture-less American, I'm glad I found a little tradition for my son and I. I definitely felt that something was missing, and I look forward to doing this when he's older.
It sometimes seems, in this great melting pot, some things never resurface.

[scruffmcgruff]

IMO saying there is no American culture is like saying Americans don't have an accent. It's all relative. I'm sure there are lots of things you do that you don't notice but outsiders would call traditions. Even looking to different parts of America we find distinct traditions; you can't possibly think that Southerners, New Yorkers, Alaskans, and Cajuns live their lives the same way!

That said, I think you're doing a good thing by starting a new tradition in your family, especially one you can really connect with. I think that is far, far better than finding something distinctly Irish on the internet and calling it a tradition all of a sudden because you feel like you've somehow inherited it.

[depravitea]

You make a good point.
Perhaps I should not have generalized in such a way, however that really doesn't change my overall feeling on the subject.
In the past thirty years the only tradition I see happening on a regular basis is BUYING. Not that I'm exempt or non-participating lol
I've lived in several states, including Alaska, and people are pretty much the same wherever I've been. Sure, there might be a difference in local cuisine or festivals, but overall I don't see much tradition, just a different style of partying.
Perhaps it's my own skewed perspective.
Sure, I bet you can grab examples of tradition from every state, heck every town, but I bet it's very family specific, and so not important, or unattainable to an outsider.

[scruffmcgruff]

Why aren't local or family-specific traditions important? Isn't that exactly what you wanted in the first place? It's also a value judgment, saying some cultures' traditions are better than others, which is a silly thing to do (unless I am misunderstanding your point).

I guess I'm a little confused about what you mean by tradition, could you try to pin it down a little more? I just don't see how are festivals and local cuisines aren't traditions. Ritualized social gatherings and recipes are very popular (and important, anthropologically) traditions passed on from generation to generation.

[iannon]

interesting subject..one i have thought about a lot in the past because of my time overseas. ( i spent most of my youth in other contries, as well as my mothers family living in both Africa and Portugal)
while i feel its true we dont have the traditions and customs overall as a country as a lot of the rest of the world we do have some of our own as a "new" country per se. Thanksgiving, 4th of July etc. ( I am sure there can be debate about even that) what we do have in this big old melting pot are regional or localized customs that are held over from wherever people came from! all those communities of Greeks or italians or chinese or japanese, polish, spanish, portuguese etc etc and on and on and on that still hold fast today as seen in the numerous festivals going on all the time.

[xuancheng]

I can see where you are coming from, Depravitea. I am a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. (Although I am actually probably no more than about 10% Anglo-Saxon by blood). I think that often in a place like the US where so many different cultures and tradition are seen every day, one might feel like one's own family has very few traditions. Part of this may just be perceiving one's own family traditions are just "Normal life."

Also, the average American family moves once every 30 years, so sometimes family traditions are hard to keep together. My four grandparents and their children/grandchildren (my uncles and aunts and cousins) live in more than 10 different states. So it does feel like we have no traditions because there are few large family gatherings.

I also find that 'tradition' has a lot to do with peoples conceptions of tradition. I now live in China, and I often meet with Chinese people who tell me "All Chinese people have a certain tradition," however in reality, there are many people who don't really participate. Which is not to deprecate their traditions or culture, but I do think traditions vary everywhere, especially between families, and they have as much importance as you yourself attach to them regardless of large ceremony and the recognition of others.

[depravitea]

I think that often in a place like the US where so many different cultures and tradition are seen every day, one might feel like one's own family has very few traditions. Part of this may just be perceiving one's own family traditions are just "Normal life."

Exactly what I mean. I feel like my family, which is spread out over 3000 miles has no traditions. We do not meet up for reunions, and there is nothing we all do because "we've always done it."

That's all I'm really trying to say. I guess if I was going to say anything else, it would be - from an outside perspective of course - that other countries seem to have more tradition in their everyday life. Now if I'm totally off base, I apologize, but from what I've read, and things I've noticed, and things in history, I would say I'm not totally inaccurate in this observation.


Also, Xuancheng, I'm very jealous of you living in China. I've been trying to talk my wife into it for a long time now... Sadly, she has some reservations about it.

[scruffmcgruff]

I understand that it may seem like America doesn't have any traditions, and that is a reasonable perception if one compares the USA as a whole to older, more cohesive (and importantly, geographically smaller) cultures like those found in relatively ancient civilized nations in Europe and Asia. I assume this is what you mean by "things in history," but I could be wrong as you didn't really specify.

But it's still silly to think that Americans really don't have any traditions; I don't think any academic would ever say such a thing, so I'm curious where you read this. I've already mentioned the family, local, and state level, but this is even true at the national level-- just because we aren't old doesn't mean we don't have our own established traditions and heritage.

Think of baseball, football (other countries do call it American football for a reason!), barbecues, jazz, rock and roll, freedom/entrepreneurship, and representative democracy, to name just a few. You may not participate in all these things-- neither do I-- but I think you would be hard-pressed to apply a similarly comprehensive list to any one person in any culture, like xuancheng noted about the Chinese.

[xuancheng]

I like this topic, so I am going to continue on with it. I hope I don't go off on a crazy tangent.

I like what scruffmcgruff said about history and tradition. Americans might see themselves as having few traditions because of this need to seek authentication for tradition in the ancient past. In reality, most traditions are much newer.

I have heard many criticisms of Christmas in the US by all kinds of people. Some say it's too commercial, some say it is not enough about it's religious roots -- we need to go back and reclaim the historical Christmas which is all about religion and family values. In reality, the Dickensian Christmas was created in the 19th century by a few authors in the US and Britain. They wanted to "bring back" "traditional Christmas" which had lost a lot of popularity having been frowned on by many protestant sects; even banned by the puritans when they ruled England. The early English Christmas was about drinking heavily, dancing, gambling, and promiscuity. Perhaps this is an exaggeration, but in ways, still valid. Also, Christmas was, in general, a much more communal holiday. People would feast together with the rest of the village. It was not a family affair. Religion was probably not a very important part of Christmas.

My point is that instead of dismissing these holidays as no longer viable because of some perceived problem(too secular, too religious, too material), you can tailor make them for your own family. You don't really have to create new things either. You can make a pagan Christmas, a very Christian Christmas, or just tell wonderful stories from American and European literary traditions.

In my opinion, many Americans (and people all over the world) have always used whatever culture they found applicable to their situation. One example I found extremely interesting was a friend's father.

My friend was very Irish. Her mother came from a family of 12 children, all went to Catholic school, etc. etc. Her father was also very Irish. He was a union construction labourer, he had all Irish friends, he always ate at Irish restaurants in Irish neighbourhoods in South Boston. He even wore an Irish flag lapel pin on his scally cap. The only thing that wasn't Irish about him was his blood. None of his ancestors were Irish, or had ever been to Ireland.

So, tradition and identity are very strange. The same friend always used to tell me that I wasn't Irish, while she was. I certainly have more Celtic blood than her, and probably more Irish blood. Sometimes I think the Boston Irish are more Irish than the Irish in Ireland. Not because of traditions or ideas or blood, but just by virtue of spending most of their time thinking about being Irish. Again, I don't mean to cast any judgements. I am just considering anecdotal evidence.

I do think that Americans are losing food traditions. 40% of meals eaten by Americans are take out or restaurant meals. I feel as though apart from religion, the family tradition which is most powerful is food and cooking. In my family we have a tradition of family dinners. We ate together every single day, almost without exception. Breakfast was the same, and on weekdays at school we ate lunches prepared at home. I don't think I bought cafeteria food more than a few times before I went to college, and it was never because lunch from home was not provided.

My father especially always cooks the same things on holidays which are the same or similar to my grandmother's cooking. He also makes a lot of pies (usually about 4 every holiday) and a plum pudding on Christmas.

If you are trying to create your own family traditions, I would suggest food based ones. Tea, for me, falls into this category. Chinese green tea was very popular in America in the 19th century, if you are interested in a historical basis for your tradition.

[scruffmcgruff]

Nice post xuancheng, thanks for sharing your stories!

[clareandromeda]

I have always felt bad for the Americans who are so far removed from their ethnicity. I'm 100% Irish, 2nd generation in America. I've been to Ireland 7 times, and spent summers there growing up. I have Irish cousins who live near me who I see many times a year and I live in one of the last 2 predominatly Irish Neighborhoods in New York City. Because I've spent so much time in both cultures I feel lucky to be able to combine what I find to be the best cultural aspects of each in my life, but I have to tell you I am sooooo glad to be an American.

As wonderful as Ireland is, (and I haven't been for 3 years and really miss it) it is a culture very inhibited by the blind embracement of Catholicsm as a form of patriotism and 800 years of subjugation by the British. Ireland is a country crippled by alcohol abuse, absolutely crippled.

The Irish were sharecroppers on their own land for hundreds of years. They lived by the whims of British landlords. This really encouraged the feelings of helplessness that motivate drinking. Do you know that Ireland was producing plenty of grain for bread and meat for eating during the potato famine? Just one cheap crop failed. All the grain, just like it had always been, was sent to feed England. Millions of Irish died, while their landlords, who could have fed them, watched. God I could go on for pages about why the Irish drink so much but what I'm really trying to say that drinking, is Irish Culture. What do people do on Saint Patricks day....they get drunk. That is a huge aspect of Irish and I say it like this "culture".

also,

The relationship Catholicism has with its adherants (the philosophy of, because I said so, nothing is up for discussion) is mirrored in peoples interpersonal relationships. So many people fall out over a disagreement and then never speak again (my father hasn't spoken to his sister in 25 years, his brother in 10). Not talking out disagreements and being drunk at every social event is not good for building relationships, family, romantic otherwise.

Of course I am being overly general here and this is just the oponion of an Irish American closer to her roots. America as "bland" as it is a wonderful place. Sometimes culture is really stiffling. America's lack of such strict norms is a blessing. As great as tea ceremony/culture is, would you really want to live in a stratified feudal society? Where most people couldn't afford the fancy tea we drink based solely on who they were born to?

The wonderful thing about America is that you can choose to incorporate whatever you want and make your own culture. Hell even having the freedom to reject cultural norms is a lot more than the majority of people who live on this planet have (as a woman this is an especially strong point)

I don't want to come off *BOO*, thats not my point. What I'm trying to say is that this claim that America has no "culture" shouldn't really be a complaint at all. In America you have to freedom to choose your own culture. That, is a blessing.

[xuancheng]

[quote="TomVerlain"]

Read Mark Twain's "Innocence Abroad" - or Henry James' "Daisy Miller"
quote]

This was Mark Twain's most successful book in his lifetime, and probably my favorite book by him. If you like Mark Twain, and haven't read this book, do yourself a favor. You can download it from Project Gutenburg or download a free audiobook version from librivox.org if you don't have space in your library for another volume.

I also enjoyed "Daisy Miller" quite a bit.

I think TomVerlain and clareandromeda have identified the most long lasting and meaningful American tradition which is to break away from harmful or restrictive traditions.

[depravitea]

Why aren't local or family-specific traditions important? Isn't that exactly what you wanted in the first place?

I never said they’re not important, I said that their family specific, and unattainable to an outsider. Meaning: If you’re not a part of that family already, how can you possibly participate in one of their family traditions?

It's also a value judgment, saying some cultures' traditions are better than others, which is a silly thing to do (unless I am misunderstanding your point).

Yes, you misunderstand my point. I never said come cultures' traditions are better than others, I said that some countries / cultures have more traditions than others. If, to you, more means better, than I guess you could think of it that way, though that is not how I intended it to be read… and now that I’m looking back at my posts, I never even said anything remotely like “come cultures' traditions are better than others.” Anyway, I don’t want to nitpick.

I guess I'm a little confused about what you mean by tradition, could you try to pin it down a little more?

I guess I don’t really know either, and that’s my problem. Some families meet every year at a reunion, some have recipes (like you mentioned), some go bowling on Thursday. I don’t’ know, what I do know is that my family has a distinct lack of anything ritualistic or inherited from generation to generation.

I understand that it may seem like America doesn't have any traditions, and that is a reasonable perception if one compares the USA as a whole to older, more cohesive (and importantly, geographically smaller) cultures like those found in relatively ancient civilized nations in Europe and Asia. I assume this is what you mean by "things in history," but I could be wrong as you didn't really specify.

You basically answered the question for yourself, except for the “things in history” by which I am broadly referring to Asian and European nations having many long lasting traditions, especially compared to America. All you can do is compare, or else there is no basis for further observations… If America seems like it has no tradition it’s probably because many have been lost over the decades as the country was populated. In my opinion, it seems that there are no traditions, because there are very few and most of them are pretty family-specific, which means it’s done by a handful of people.
I didn’t write a research paper on it, so I can’t site my sources, sorry. This is just how I feel about it from things I’ve observed, and read, and noticed lacking in my own life. Not just my own life though, I notice most of my friends don’t really interact with their families much, and they really have nothing they do with their families on a regular basis, or a traditional one. So I don’t think I’m totally alone on this…
Please don’t say sports are tradition, I might vomit. It’s called American football by the rest of the world to make a clear distinction between REAL football and the knockoff that’s so vehemently and single-mindedly followed in this country. ...though you may be, unfortunately, right...

Americans might see themselves as having few traditions because of this need to seek authentication for tradition in the ancient past.

This is true for me. This is what I thought was lacking, something reminding us of our past and European roots. Btw your story about your Father’s Irish friend is great. I've noticed similar things happen with people I've known, but not so all-consuming.

If you are trying to create your own family traditions, I would suggest food based ones. Tea, for me, falls into this category.

I agree 100%, this is what I was initially posting about. Morning tea with my son – but not only that. I’d like to find some others…
I just want him to be able to say to his kids: “My dad and I did this when I was your age.” You know?

I have always felt bad for the Americans who are so far removed from their ethnicity.
What I'm trying to say is that this claim that America has no "culture" shouldn't really be a complaint at all.

I appreciate all your input, and agree with a lot of it, but some of the things you said contradict themselves (in my opinion.) You feel bad for Americans who are removed from their ethnicity, but you also say that having no culture shouldn’t be a complaint at all. So why feel bad for Americans who are removed from their ethnicity?
I’m not saying I want to move to Ireland just because that’s my ethnicity, what I’m saying is that I would have liked to have known what (if anything) my great great grandfather may have done traditionally with his family, or what his mother may have done, or his mother’s mother…
I do feel removed. I do feel like the only tradition we have is present buying. I’m not crippled by this, I don’t weep over it. I’m just curious as to what my family might have done a century ago, two centuries ago, and if it was something I liked, and could do, I might have done it with my family. Since that information can never be found, I founded a tradition of my own with morning tea. Also, I really like what Xuancheng suggested with food. I’m not a bad cook, so I’m going to look find a few recipes to carry over year to year for various holidays we might celebrate. They’re don’t even need to be Irish. Heck, I just got a book on China and it goes into a lot of “traditional” food, and I might use a few of those recipes. So, Clareandromeda, I most definitely agree that “the wonderful thing about America is that you can choose to incorporate whatever you want and make your own culture”
- because you have to.

Cinco De Mayo is a very popular American Tradition as well. (I am sort of kidding)

That’s pretty funny actually. I know some people from Mexico that say that isn’t even a big deal there. It’s for tourists lol

the closer you look, the weaker real traditions are. Many made up for no reason than to have a tradition, or misteakenly appropriated from some other source. What was "traditional" 50 years ago is no longer "traditional" today, and today's "traditions" will be surplanted tomorrow.

I agree, I would have just liked to know there was something my family has been doing for a long time. I feel root-less. That’s ok though. I’ll appropriate a few traditions. Not green beer though.
Thanks for the book recommendations by the way, I just finished what I was reading and will be heading to the Library later.

I think TomVerlain and clareandromeda have identified the most long lasting and meaningful American tradition which is to break away from harmful or restrictive traditions.

Very much agreed. I would complain about being controlled a heck of a lot more than I complained about being bland.

[scruffmcgruff]

...but I bet it's very family specific, and so not important, or unattainable to an outsider.

I hope you can understand my confusion over this statement, as you did say they are not important. Maybe you didn't mean this, but grammatically you said family-specific traditions are unattainable to outsiders or simply unimportant.

Sure, there might be a difference in local cuisine or festivals, but overall I don't see much tradition, just a different style of partying.

Please don’t say sports are tradition, I might vomit. It’s called American football by the rest of the world to make a clear distinction between REAL football and the knockoff that’s so vehemently and single-mindedly followed in this country. Rolling Eyes ...though you may be, unfortunately, right...

No value judgments, eh? Before you provided me with that gem about football though, by value judgment I meant you seem to be dismissing a great deal of American tradition as "not good enough" because you are looking for something more "authentic." I never said you directly compared one culture's traditions with another (though now, ironically, you have), but you can't deny the undercurrent of negativity toward American traditions in your posts.

Also, between sports, food, and ritualized social gatherings, you've dismissed a hell of a lot of traditions, if not all of them. You say you can't define tradition-- I don't blame you if you don't consider sport, food, or parties traditions!

Interestingly, you have flip-flopped on all these three things. You have decided that "real" football is somehow more authentic than the "knockoff" American version (as if "real" football today were exactly like it used to be at its inception), you have picked up a "traditional" cookbook, and you have started morning tea with your son (a social gathering on the family level).

You basically answered the question for yourself...

I don't remember asking any questions, I was stating that your perception is understandable-- though I later made a case for it being very incorrect, which you did not address.

You still continue to say that Americans do not have very many traditions, and that most of them are only at the family level. What about all the traditions I have already mentioned? You either ignore my evidence, respond citing vague sources like "things I've read/seen/heard/etc.", or make value judgments (football). How can I win against an argument like that?