Typo???

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Jan 26th, '06, 22:18
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Typo???

by Ric » Jan 26th, '06, 22:18

http://www.adagio.com/info/good_vs_bad.html

I think I found a typo at the link above. I underlined the possible typo below.
Remember when your choice of coffee ranged from Folgers to Sanka? And then Starbucks came along to show how much better it can be. The same is true of tea. The varieties on offer in your supermarket are the bottom of the barrel: low-quality bags containing tea dust - the tiny leaf particles that break off when tea leaves are processed. They'll add color to your cup, but not much flavor. A far cry from the abundance of flavor and intoxicating aroma found in a cup of full-leaf gourmet tea. Chances are, you are no longer drinking Sanka. Once you try our teas, you will not wish to drink anything sold in the supermarket either.
In God's Grace,
Ric

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Jan 27th, '06, 00:39
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by TeaFanatic » Jan 27th, '06, 00:39

Here's another typo...sort of.

http://www.adagio.com/info/trivia.html

Basically this page has a part that talks about how TIPS originated from the tea gardens in England, which is fine, but then in Chris's book it said that this was just a made up story by the coffee world. Which is correct?
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Jan 27th, '06, 08:26
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by LavenderPekoe » Jan 27th, '06, 08:26

Ric - Why do you think that is a typo? I think that is perfectly acceptable. Where's our resident editor, Mikeb?
Teas for trade:

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by chris » Jan 27th, '06, 09:51

Re: TIPS

The myth is not true.... As Gandhi once said when confronted about a contradictory stance, "I've learned something new since then."

Re: Supermarket

I don't think that it is grammatically incorrect, but looking it over it does sound a little awkward. I'll massage the text.

I don't think i need to hire an editor for my next book -- I'll just post it for TeaChat review (you guys are thorough!).

Thanks again,

Chris
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Jan 27th, '06, 19:20
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by Ric » Jan 27th, '06, 19:20

chris wrote:Re: TIPS

The myth is not true.... As Gandhi once said when confronted about a contradictory stance, "I've learned something new since then."

Re: Supermarket

I don't think that it is grammatically incorrect, but looking it over it does sound a little awkward. I'll massage the text.

I don't think i need to hire an editor for my next book -- I'll just post it for TeaChat review (you guys are thorough!).

Thanks again,

Chris
Adagio Maestro
Sorry, I'm no English major, but it did sound "odd" to me. Now if we were talking about math... :wink:
In God's Grace,
Ric

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Jan 27th, '06, 22:01
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by illium » Jan 27th, '06, 22:01

I just finished up a year long stint as an English teacher at a university. In my less than professional opinion (seriously ask any of my students, I'm NOT a professional), the grammar is what I would call "theoretically sound in structure", and "precidented by common usage", but "lacking in linguistic fluency".

That is to say, a better way to say that would be "offered", or "being offered". Compound prepositional phrases are generally to be avoided, however technically they are not "wrong". Same cetegory as split infinitives, and dangling preposistions...

Hope that helps,
Troy
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Jan 27th, '06, 22:25
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by Ric » Jan 27th, '06, 22:25

illium wrote:I just finished up a year long stint as an English teacher at a university. In my less than professional opinion (seriously ask any of my students, I'm NOT a professional), the grammar is what I would call "theoretically sound in structure", and "precidented by common usage", but "lacking in linguistic fluency".

That is to say, a better way to say that would be "offered", or "being offered". Compound prepositional phrases are generally to be avoided, however technically they are not "wrong". Same cetegory as split infinitives, and dangling preposistions...

Hope that helps,
Troy
Oh how I hate those dangling preposistions. :wink: :lol: :P
In God's Grace,
Ric

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Jan 28th, '06, 02:03
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by TeaFanatic » Jan 28th, '06, 02:03

chris wrote:Re: TIPS

The myth is not true.... As Gandhi once said when confronted about a contradictory stance, "I've learned something new since then."
Should you fix that then on your page? It says that it is true...
"Make tea not war"

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Jan 28th, '06, 04:02
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off on offer

by Jing Cha » Jan 28th, '06, 04:02

chris wrote: Re: Supermarket

I don't think that it is grammatically incorrect, but looking it over it does sound a little awkward. I'll massage the text.
There is nothing grammatically incorrect with, "on offer." Many non-Americans frequently use the expression to indicate what's available, attainable or achievable; it's an indication of the active involvement of a condition or status of being, "offered." An example.

"Offer" is being used as a noun, not a verb; as such, usage is acceptable following the function word, "on." Similar constructs would be, "on sale," or, "on fire." How sad the world would be if nothing could be on sale! How cold and raw the world would be if nothing could be on fire!

It sounds awkward in part because of running, "on," and, "off," together like that: on off(er). We Americans like things on or off, black or white, one or zero, true or false, good or evil, hot or cold, right or wrong. There is little tolerance for shades of Earl Grey. The Brits, on the other hand, well, have almost an entirely different way of life, one where everything is tepid, mild, muddy, middle of the road, right and wrong, true and false, good and evil; even the water in the shower is hot then cold then hot then cold then hot then cold. Such an expression as, "on offer," might seem completely natural to them!

Let me go on record as saying I like the use of, "on offer." (Off record: I don't see the phrase itself as, "lacking in linguistic fluency," perhaps so much as American culture itself.) Of course, my unabashed approval should probably be seen as an immediate need to overhaul and replace the phrase. I like thinking of teas being, "on offer," rather than being, "for sale." I prefer to browse the Adagio site and posit, "What wonderful offers are there for me today?" rather than, "What is that joker Chris Cason trying to sell me now?" Just kidding, Chris, though please do send me those brochures about oceanfront property in Arizona!

However, in the context of the quoted text, "on offer," does not seem appropriate. Really, these teas are not being offered to us; large corporations are paying slotting fees to buy shelf space to let their inferior, mass-distributed and lower-grade teabags take up space. Perhaps, "Most varieties in your supermarket are the bottom of the barrel: low-quality bags," or, "What's available in your supermarket," would be an improvement. I mean, are we truly being offered these teas, or does someone just put them there and hope they fall into our carts? And what is it exactly that's being offered--the tea itself or the eye-popping colors or the soothing images or the go-health appeal on the box? Sometimes I feel like some companies put more thought into the quality of string on their teabags than the quality of tea in those bags (perhaps this is because some of these companies also manufacture tampons?)

Actually, the biggest pet peeve I have with this text is the coffee comparison. It's absolutely small-minded and inappropriate and shows a true lack of depth of knowledge of both consumer and specialty coffee history. Granted, the simplistic nature is appealing and is something to which most consumers can readily relate; nevertheless, drawing quick comparisons with shallow observations does not allow for the real wealth and wisdom available in both empirical and anecdotal form. I hope the whole Sanka/Folgers/Starbucks thing is simply a catchy rallying cry, not a true basis of fundamental market strategy. Again, it's just a pet peeve. I hate coffee ignorance as much as Chris hates tea ignorance. Only, he writes books and does great work for a great company poised on the brink of revolution while I merely whine and complain about things a lot! Oh yeah, I also drink a lot of tea. I think we have that one thing in common.

Dear Adagio: Offer On!

Will Gladly,

Jing Cha

Gazing up into the darkness I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity; and my eyes burned with anguish and anger.

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by teaspoon » Jan 28th, '06, 11:24

Good point, Jing Cha. I'm not Chris, so I can't answer to "author's intent" but I think the coffee analogy is just that, an analogy. It's too incidental in the passage to really constitute a marketing strategy. It works as a hook, and something instantly familiar that helps the reader understand exactly what he's saying. He refers back to it to reinforce his point about tea quality, but the passage isn't really based on the analogy per se. It would be different if "Like Starbucks to Sanka" or something were their slogan. Just my quick analysis.

~tsp
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Tea in the Sahara with you."
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by Ric » Jan 28th, '06, 17:33

I never dreamed that this would receive so many replies. :roll:

Oh well, let's see what else I can stir up? :lol:
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Ric

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swimming with the mermaid

by Jing Cha » Jan 30th, '06, 19:05

teaspoon wrote:Good point, Jing Cha. I'm not Chris, so I can't answer to "author's intent" but I think the coffee analogy is just that, an analogy. It's too incidental in the passage to really constitute a marketing strategy. It works as a hook, and something instantly familiar that helps the reader understand exactly what he's saying. He refers back to it to reinforce his point about tea quality, but the passage isn't really based on the analogy per se. It would be different if "Like Starbucks to Sanka" or something were their slogan. Just my quick analysis.

~tsp

Good to hear from you, teaspoon! Re-reading my comments, I feel I may have been a bit too vicious and snide in my elocution of dissent regarding the Sanka/Starbucks thing. But I do think I'm allergic to that analogy: it makes me itchy.

I'm really sick of all these tea companies trying to be, "the Starbucks of tea." The Starbucks phenomena is so hugely misunderstood by so many people from so many perspectives with so many opinions and so little actual understanding, both by people whom love and hate Starbucks. And no, I don't hate Starbucks; I actually like quite a lot about them! But that's not what bugs me about the analogy in question. What bugs me about it? I wanted to do a Top 10 list, each with its own 20 bulletin points, but let me try, for once, to be concise:

Folgers, MJB, Hills Brothers, Yuban, Maxwell House all started out as very high-quality brands. As consumers responded to lower prices, as the international coffee market started offering dirt-cheap commodity prices thanks to growth in robusta and high-yield production hybrid plants and expanding production rapidly into countries such as Vietnam, most mass-consumer labels began using cheaper coffee to maintain competitive prices and maximum profits. They played to the market for convenience and price and still enjoy large market-share as a result.

There will always be a market for convenience and price and there will always be people who consider coffee a commodity summed in the maxim: "coffee is coffee." Yet, these people like coffee or at least have a habitual desire for its regular consumption.

The problem with tea in America is that a lot of people don't even like tea, even good tea, even Adagio tea, and it's a lot more than a matter of providing a better product for even people whom, "taste the difference," to go back to buying from, "the bottom of the barrel." Yes, tea is on the march, more people are turning on and tuning in; we are at the possible precipice of the next step to a new level--but of what?

It is products such as the Ingeniutea, a website as wonderful as Adagio, a forum as great as TeaChat, events such as TeaChef, fun education like TeaMuse, resources like TeaMap, helping hands like TeaClass, industry shots-in-the-arm like TeaTrends, the hard work and savvy of Ilya (we love you Ilya!), the earnest efforts and far-reaching goals and poised perseverance of every individual in the company from Michael Cramer on down to Chris Cason which make the ultimate difference.

Starbucks? No need to conjure them to make your point. Some might say it actually un-makes your point.

Starbucks has done a phenomenal job at creating a, "third place," for customers to be between work and home. They have comfortable furniture, clean tables, great music, rich atmosphere and amazing employees dedicated to providing the highest levels of customer service. However, their toilet paper is a little scratchy and their coffee--while made from some of the world's best offerings--leaves more than a little to be desired.

Push-button super-automatic espresso machines are predictable and lower training costs but provide perhaps acceptable yet ultimately inferior results. Roasting coffee in batches of several-several-hundred pounds at a time does suffer quality at least a little bit. And some might say that the roast profile itself does not bring out the best in each bean's potential. I know, picky picky picky. Regardless, the primary accomplishment of Starbucks is to convince more customers to pay more money for drinks that contain less coffee. This can help pave the way toward increasing customer awareness of truly superior coffee quality; yet, it fails to achieve it.

Starbucks has certainly increased consumer awareness regarding the Starbucks brand and espresso-based milk-rich sugar-syrup-laden beverages and blended icy coffee candy brain-freezies. Don't get me wrong, I love blended icy coffee candy brain-freezies! Starbucks themselves are not to be regarded as primarily responsible for any quality increase in home coffee preparation and are certainly not regarded for achieving advances in coffee or espresso preparation, period.

Yes, better coffee is widely more available today than in the past. Most people still don't drink it, but it's out there for those who choose another path. The advent of the two-way valve and nitrogen-flush technology has had a lot to do with that. The availability of affordable and convenient home grinding mechanisms has had a lot to do with that. The improvements and changes in home brewing technology has had a lot to do with that. Movements toward organic, fair-trade, natural, rainforest and bird-friendly sources has had a tremendous amount to do with that (perhaps more-so than anything else). Internet resources like CoffeeGeek and blogs such as the Dirty Portafilter; independent coffeehouses such as Victrola, Zoka, Vivace, Intelligentisa, Stumptown, Barefoot (and too many more to mention); small armies of homeroasters; grocery stores such as Whole Foods; people (again, too many to mention them all) like Kenneth Davids and David Schomer and--perhaps above all--George Howell have a darn lot to do with it. And it would be plain wrong of me not to mention the entire country of Italy and every last talented, dedicated barista worldwide (with a special shout out to my boy John Hornall in Philly). But Starbucks? Uh. Whatever.

Supermarkets are a terrible place to buy coffee, regardless of selection. They are even a worse place to buy coffee than to buy tea! The primary problem is that coffee beans, once roasted, are only at their peak of flavor for a few days up to a few weeks. Once ground, coffee flavor dissipates within seconds to minutes. Even sealed in high-barrier moisture-resistant nitrogen-flushed bags with two-way valves to allow for degassing with minimal oxidation, most quality-oriented specialty coffee companies only give those beans 90 days maximum of shelf life. Some companies go so far as to refuse to sell beans more than 2 days old! Few supermarkets have sufficient turn-over of product in such a timeframe and few actually pull product off the shelf for anything short of mold or mildew (in the case of Larry's Markets, not even then, according to personal discovery). Most of the time, it's up to the suppliers themselves to manage their inventory, shelves and displays. As long as the slotting fees keep rolling in, most markets could care less what coffee or tea is on their shelves.

Yes, I said I would try to be concise. So I'll leave third-world politics and international economics out of it for now. I'll leave out the bullying, the real estate, the lease finagling, the lawyers, the trademarks (Did you know Starbucks once accused a monastery of infringing on its trademark of, 'Christmas Blend?'), the lawsuits, the attorneys, the lawyers, the lawyers and the lawyers' lawyers. So there, that's me, being concise as you'll get. Just call me a triple non-fat Venti Blab with extra whip.

Again, this is just my pet peeve and should be taken as such. I hate it when I get itchy. It makes me drink coffee.

Anyone like a cup of Terroir Ethopian Yirgacheffe? It is, "Highly aromatic, floral, Darjeeling tea, sweet lemon intertwined with wisps of apricot." Certified fair-trade and organic. Or I have some Folgers in the cupboard . . . it's Mountain Grown!

Will Gladly,

Jing Cha

O here here how hoth sprowled met the duskt the father of fornicationists but, (O my shining stars and body!) how hath fanespanned most high heaven the skysign of soft advertisement

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by jzero » Jan 30th, '06, 21:26

Jing Cha wrote:Yes, I said I would try to be concise.
"To make a long story short..."
"TOO LATE!"

:lol:

Long as they may be, your posts are at least coherent, well-thought-out and most important: FRIENDLY.

I can't honestly admit that I read every word, but I read at least 75% of them.

While I empathize with your sentiments on the coffee market, I think they overlook the intent of the analogy which is not to say that Starbucks is selling the world's greatest coffee, but just to say that Adagio aspires to bring better tea to the mainstream that doesn't know that there are options beside Lipton, Twinings and Bigelow...

Sat nam! :D
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not waving, but drowning

by Jing Cha » Jan 31st, '06, 22:56

Jzero,

You read at least 75% of my words? Man, I think that's some kind of record! :) Really, I appreciate your comments. In high school, my English Composition teacher always used to say, "Coherent, Cogent, Cohesive," as she'd wrap us on the knuckles with that ruler. She also said, "Less is more." Unfortunately, I later met Stanley Elkin who told me, "More is more." Of course, there was also William Gass who would randomly shout, "#@*% Minimalism!" It was Gass, of course, who prompted Frederick Barthelme to write that New York Times piece, "Convicted Minimalist Spills Bean."

Again, my critique, if you wish to dignify it as such, is merely expression of a personal pet peeve and ought be taken merely as that. I understand that Adagio is in the business of selling gourmet tea, not assuring the sanctity of analogy nor rising above common logical fallacy nor in conducting scientific double-blind studies to discern levels of statistically significant correlation. They are appealing to the common senses of the common man with a story which they hope will resound with potential customers, kind of like Keebler makes us think that those little elves pack fudge into cookies in a magical tree. Who doesn't love those little elves?

The basis of my complaint IS NOT that Starbucks isn't selling the world's greatest coffee. They do offer premium specialty selections from high-quality single origin estates from around the world as well as signature blends containing 100% Arabica beans (just like Denny's). My complaint is that Starbucks is not singularly responsible for increasing demand for the quality of coffee available. Saying that, "And then Starbucks came along to show how much better it can be," is a dig toward those who truly have innovated and educated and advanced the cause of rescuing coffee from self-destructing crisis.

Starbucks has been of enormous help in calling attention to coffee with its glowing green spotlight; nevertheless, they have not been, "The Ones," to show the world how much better it can be. That would be like saying, "Then Taco Bell came along to teach us about Mexican cuisine." Yes, Taco Bell is a good company, part of the forward-thinking Yum! franchise group; yes, Taco Bell is the introduction and popularization for most Americans to the concept of Mexican food; no, Taco Bell has not taught us much about authentic Mexican cuisine.

Or it would be like saying, "Then Hershey's came along and showed us how much better chocolate can be." Yes, Hershey is a great all-American company; yes, they have many fine products including hugs and kisses and pots of gold; yes, their chocolate is the one of choice for many home bakers in making cookies and brownies and other warm chocolate delights; yes, Hersheys does own Scharffen Berger, one of the most lauded high-end chocolate brands in the US; no, Hersheys is not promoting the demand for distinctive, high-end chocolate so much as attempting to capitalize upon it and the future market potential of dark-chocolate's anti-oxidant benefits.

Or it would be like saying, "Coca-Cola came along and taught us about refreshment." (Or is it that they taught the world to sing in perfect harmony?) After all, they are a wildly successful ubiquitous international company.

Or it would be like saying, "Then the Marlboro Man and Joe Camel came along and showed us how fun and rugged smoking could make us be." You know, "Once you smoke a Marb Red, you'll never go back to Bronco's!" or, "Once you try a Camel Turkish Jade Light 100, you'll swear off GPC Menthol!" Need I say more?

In fact, a lot of people are altogether turned off by Starbucks' roast style, level of freshness, and zany re-invention of the words small, medium, and large. For instance, a lot of people prefer their Dunkin' Donuts coffee, which clearly is not made from the same level of quality beans (sometimes good is good enough: don't want to upstage the tasty deep-fried sugar-coated treats!) But hey, as Someone once said, De gustibus non est disputandum.

Now that my preamble is complete, I object to the coffee analogy on the following grounds:

(1) It is inaccurate.

Not only the part about Starbucks/Folgers/Sanka, but the part about all supermarket teas being low-quality bags containing tea dust. Aside from Lipton, Twinnings, and Bigelow, there is also Republic of Tea, David Rio, Stash, Harney & Sons, Tazo, Numi, Golden Moon Tea, Tea Forte, Celestial Seasonings and others on offer at my two nearest supermarkets, a regular good 'ol Kroger-owned chain store and a run-of-the-mill Safeway. Certainly, you cannot call all of these, "bottom of the barrel."

The key is that Adagio carries top-notch teas which are considerably fresher and a better value than what you find in the supermarket. Adagio offers a wealth of information (reviews, descriptions, stories, history, recommendations) and assistance beyond what the typical supermarket clerk can provide. Adagio offers convenient, affordable, speedy delivery to your door with superior packaging and service. Isn't that what it's all about? Or is Adagio instead about attacking competitors and saying that everyone will prefer Adagio tea to brand X?

(2) It is not truly relevant.

Sanka is an decaf instant-coffee product, a marvel of modern engineering ability, which provides quick, hassle-free, consistent beverages sans caffeine with a long shelf-life, which is good in case you are a ninja living in a mountain cave who loves simple instant coffee flavour without any of the fuss or nerve-jingling jitters of, "the real stuff." There simply is no Starbucks equivalent.

The core of people who drink Sanka are shown to not even particularly like fresh-brewed coffee, let alone high-quality fresh-brewed coffee or espresso. The number of consumers who switch from Sanka to Starbucks is statistically insignificant compared to other, larger trends. Let's make quality Adagio herbal and decaffeinated tea one of those trends!

(3) It is not useful.

Tea is very different than coffee. Coffee knowledge, technology, production, and economics has changed radically in the past few decades and continues to do so on a daily basis. As an organic chemical entity, coffee is significantly more complex than tea. As we are merely beginning to unlock the secrets of the coffee, we have yet to reach the apex of culinary achievement in extracting full potential from the bean. As we do so, people will hopefully be introduced to new, better coffee experiences. It's not that these options existed all along and were thwarted by other factors--it's because they were not previously possible!

Tea has been around for much, much longer than coffee and has been more largely understood in terms of how to grow, trade, grade, and prepare. The secrets we are beginning to unlock within tea pertain to the health-benefits of the leaf more-so than the chemical extraction of flavor components. Another path that is beginning to be explored is the flavor-rich use of tea as a cooking ingredient. But it's not like advances in brewing technology are going to change the game anytime soon. Oh wait, is that an IngenuiTea I see in the corner? Oh my, look at that TriniTea! Tell me: what are we talking about Sanka, Folgers, and Starbucks for with other much more wonderful things to promote?

Let's talk about the real issues of tea in America instead of the good vs bad, gourmet vs supermarket paradigm prattle. Let's really tell and show people what tea and Adagio are all about!

(4) I don't like it.

This, I assure you, is the best reason of them all.


Will Gladly,

Jing Cha

Today we've replaced your normal source of Jing Cha signature quotation with Folger's Crystals. Will anyone notice the difference?

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Re: not waving, but drowning

by jzero » Feb 1st, '06, 09:14

Jing Cha wrote: That would be like saying, "Then Taco Bell came along to teach us about Mexican cuisine."
Now you're speaking my language. If I had actually read this sentence I would be scratching my head in utter confusion.

Between this and point #4, I now see where you're coming from.
Starbucks'...zany re-invention of the words small, medium, and large.
I cannot say for sure if the coffeeshops I went to before Starbucks came to my area actually pre-dated Starbucks, but they all seemed to use odd names like tall, double-tall, etc...Is Starbuck's really to blame?
For instance, a lot of people prefer their Dunkin' Donuts coffee
I'm not sure what it is about their coffee, but in "fast food" class of coffee, it is hands-down the best there is.
But hey, as Someone once said, De gustibus non est disputandum.
ZING!
(4) I don't like it.

This, I assure you, is the best reason of them all.
De gustibus non est disputandum. :)
They Call Me Jzero

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